I'm in Vancouver... any details you can share without being prosecuted?

Posted by: Mac at January 23, 2006 10:03 PM

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Mac, because the blackout hasn't been lifted in BC yet, Steve is already in danger of being prosecuted.

Posted by: Ed Minchau at January 23, 2006 10:07 PM

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The independent is a shock-jock in Quebec

Posted by: Leslie at January 23, 2006 10:18 PM

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What a fabulous new Liberal "Brat Pack" - Paulie, Belinda, Ken and Scott. (My assistant Beaker will now step into the Teleport Machine ... mee, mee, mee, mee)

Posted by: LookingIn at January 23, 2006 10:19 PM

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From Steyn: "As I predicted a couple of days ago, Andre Arthur - 'King Arthur' the shock jock - has taken Portneuf as an independent."

Go to the British-based, hoser ex-pat, site "The Surly Beaver" for more, and legal, results.

Posted by: andycanuck at January 23, 2006 10:37 PM

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What a ghastly result. Once again Ontario has stuck a fork into what is left of Canadian Cohesion.

I can't think of anything good about these results except the Conservative gains in Quebec. Otherwise this is a mess.

Canadians(oops, really Ontarians) truly are sheeple.

Should have been drinking so that this debacle made more sense.

Posted by: dougf at January 23, 2006 10:45 PM

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Now is the time for the west to make a move and leave. Ontario never gave us enough reasons to stay. May they go down in flames with their beloved grits, Lieberals or theives , what ever you want to call them!

Posted by: eliza at January 23, 2006 10:51 PM

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Current seat totals (elected / leading):

Cons: 123
Libs: 103
NDP: 30
Bloc: 50
Ind: 1

If this holds there is a possibility the Libs + NDP could steal the election.

Posted by: The Wild Duck at January 23, 2006 11:01 PM

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Lets hope that Prime Minister Harper can show all thos Ontario voters that he can produce results, then they will get over their "fear" of the Conservatives. All the votes for Liberals in Ontario can be attributed to buying into the fear and smear campaign...Sheeple.

Posted by: Awake Canadian at January 23, 2006 11:02 PM

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As a New Brunswicker, I consent to Prime Minister Harper tearing down Confederation Bridge and digging a trench to effectively sever Nova Scotia.

Posted by: Steve Morrissey at January 23, 2006 11:02 PM

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I was hoping for a better showing from the Tory Blue based on the polling. I guess there's nothing the Grits can do to actually disappoint their supporters. The Grits will spin this as a victory since they lost many fewer seats than the polls projected, similar to the last election. Honestly, I don't think this bodes all that well for Canada. There is little meaningful legislation the CPC can move faced with three left of center parties in opposition. Is passing some decentralization and ethics bills going to help Canada much? I don't see how the CPC will even be able to muster the votes for increases in defense or decreases in taxes. It really shows that Canadians really want the status quo. I expect Canada to plod along until Albertans get completely fed up and go it alone at some point in the future. There are just too many Canadians who hold European views and want a European syle country.

Posted by: Laddy at January 23, 2006 11:03 PM

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Michael Ignatieff has been elected. More "egghead" headlines.

All I can say is, "bring it on!" I really enjoyed reading about Ignatieff and his ideas. Even though I am a knuckle-dragging Neanderthal American Republican, I look forward to hearing more from him.

But then, I guess that was his other weakness: he was "pro-Democracy" for Iraq. :)

And oh, this just in as I write:

"Hull Aylmer riding"

32% for Proulx, 30% for Bloc. What a squeaker.

Actually, I've talked to Proulx and he has done so much for this riding. And there isnt' a speck of dirt on him. He doesnt' deserve to be blamed for what his party has done.

As sick as it is, if I had the right to vote here, I'd vote for him, despite my desire to see a Conservative government.

The question always facing Canadians is: Do I vote for the party or for the individual?

But Tip O'Neill always said: "Politics is always local."

He was absolutely right.

'Night, all, and it's too bad that tomorrow is a work day, otherwise we could have some Mimosas and collectively savor this day. :)

Posted by: JulieM at January 23, 2006 11:05 PM

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So the story is,

Martin ran a divisive campaign and got a devisive country.

Fortress Toronto - Liberal
Everything else - not Liberal

Perhaps Torontonians should stay out of politics and stick to what they know best:
sipping lattes, wearing expensive clothes, and holding their noses well above the rest of Canada.

We came very close to the country breaking apart tonight.

I give it three more years when the Libs win thier next "devisive" minority.

Posted by: biff at January 23, 2006 11:13 PM

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Ugh. My home riding will be re-electing a Liberal, and the riding I have an apartment in for work will be sending a Dipper to the house again.

Pity me.

Ontario and the East, what does a party have to do before you pull the plug? Or is it that you are afraid the gravy train might stop if you kick out the crooks? Geez, get some backbone. If I ever get in trouble, I want nothing but Easterners and Ontarians on my jury.

Posted by: Yukon Gold at January 23, 2006 11:14 PM

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Mike Duffy just reported that Paul Martin is not ready to concede as Prime Minister... wil he stay on with some sort of alliance with the NDP? If he does then I am ready to protest in the streets!

Posted by: derbyDog at January 23, 2006 11:16 PM

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One more thing.... ONTARIO... WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING??????

Posted by: derbyDog at January 23, 2006 11:18 PM

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I got a phonecall from Marc Garneau, the Lib candidate in Vaudreuil-Soulanges after the polls closed, he asked me if I voted and I said yes (first time since the '93 election, was disenchanted with the whole thing after Chretien's GST false promise). I voted Conservative, now we're stuck with the Bloc again cuz the vote split...maybe they should have put Mr. Garneau someplace better because he does seem like a decent man...I hate this strategic voting crap.

D

Posted by: David Lockwood at January 23, 2006 11:20 PM

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Yeah Ontario...ya put Stronach back in there...sheesh...

D

Posted by: David Lockwood at January 23, 2006 11:24 PM

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bahhh, bahhh, bahhh, ...i think i hear martin shaking a big bag of carrots as a reward for his flock in ontario...bahhh.bahhhh...bahhh

Posted by: slim at January 23, 2006 11:25 PM

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I don't know what to say to you, Yukon Gold. The pollsters clearly missed the mark in New Brunswick (I expected nothing out of NS or PEI, and we didn't disappoint. Yuck. Conservaties got pounded in metro Halifax even worse than I expected). At least my parents' riding (Tobique-Mactaquac) flipped.

As for the 416/905.. I fear this result is symptomatic of a much deeper chasm in beliefs between that region and the west than what any of us expected. If after everything the Liberals have done and everything Martin did in this campaign they can still break so solidly in his favour -- that region may be a permanent lost cause for conservatives, and bodes very ill for the future.

This is a weak minority; Lib + NDP is +11 on CPC as I type.

Screechin' Annie's gone, anyway. Belinda survived, though.

Posted by: Ian in NS at January 23, 2006 11:31 PM

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Kevin Neman speculating that Libs + NDP = 133 seats 10 more than Conservatives.... can you say coalition with an election in another year?

Posted by: derbyDog at January 23, 2006 11:32 PM

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Edmonton Centre - Hawn's been called but Annie's saying she's waiting 'til all the votes are counted. FYI. I'd celebrate but OTOH I'm concerned there's something up her sleeve but OTOOH I definitely saw fear in her eyes . . .

Posted by: Meg Q at January 23, 2006 11:32 PM

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The NDP and Liberal could form a coalition government...

OMG

That means Paul Martin remains PM.

Posted by: Awake Canadain at January 23, 2006 11:33 PM

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CBC originally showed Martin as trailing in his riding but now saying he's made it. I guess he had a bunch of extra ballots tucked away, just in case?

Posted by: Mac at January 23, 2006 11:35 PM

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coalition????????

How about these words:

Western Seperation.

Or these words:

Western Seperation.

Or the ever popular:

Western Seperation.

Posted by: chuckles at January 23, 2006 11:35 PM

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Getting results in BC now... In my riding, Conservative incumbant, Russ Hiebert re-elected by a comfortable margin. Nice.

Posted by: Mac at January 23, 2006 11:38 PM

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Let's not get out of hand. The previous incarnations of the Conservative Party built their reputation on bashing Ontario (which his supporters accentuate every time they screm for Western separation). To expect instant votes in Ontario without Harper proving they wish to govern the ENTIRE country fairly (as opposed to just getting "revenge" for the west) is a bit ridiculous. Let Harper have his minority and prove he can clean up the mess. Then he can go for a majority.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 23, 2006 11:39 PM

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I must say that although I'm so disappointed I could cry, this result is no surprise. All those people who didn't have the guts to put a Liberal sign on their lawn went into a polling booth and voted for a Liberal candidate. I've wondered for the last week what was happening in the MSM, especially CTV News. It's pretty shocking when the CBC is less biased.

It's starting to appear that the breakup of this country is inevitable. I know that the CPC picked up some seats in Quebec and that's great but the Maritimes were again, a huge disappointment. Gotta keep those pogey checks coming, I guess. I've gone from being hopeful to depressed and cannot understand why I seem to be so out of touch with my fellow Ontarians. Honesty and integrity and honour are important to me; what has happened to this country that these ideals no longer matter?

If the west goes, I'm going, too.

K.Payne

Posted by: K. Payne at January 23, 2006 11:39 PM

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Any region that wants to leave the country because their barely-beyond-regional party did not get a majority via the same people they've been insulting for the 5 years ... is free to do so. Ultimately, there is going to have to be some respectful dialog between the "latte sippers" in Ontario and the "rednecks" in Alberta or else the country will break up no matter what. Alternative, perhaps we can all take a field trip to Eritrea, Palestine or some other part of world seeking "independence" so we can all see just how well we've got it.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 23, 2006 11:46 PM

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ask not what my country can do for me......but what i can do for my country......these words mean as much for canada now as they ever did in the states....
ontario and maritimes voted for criminals that also take care of them......not good for my canada...i think were gonna have a seperation comin soon......western anger will seeth if they form a coalition government, and martin retains power.......

Posted by: slim at January 23, 2006 11:52 PM

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Elections.ca has a surprising good website that allows really easy monitoring of your favorite ridings, provinces and more. Definately better than waiting for the talking heads and scrolls to display what you want to see.

Posted by: AlbertaCon at January 23, 2006 11:55 PM

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I am sad for Canada. Atlantic Canada, Toronto, and Vancouver all sold their souls to the most corrput and obnoxious government in modern day.

Only other party that sold Canada's soul was Diefenbaker with the Avro Arrow

Posted by: tomax at January 23, 2006 11:59 PM

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Will bitter leftist Canadians threaten to leave Canada now? If so, where will they go? Their options are shrinking.

Posted by: Lou Minatti at January 23, 2006 11:59 PM

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cynapse,

Regional?

You may want to check the results,

The only areas where the CPC didn't have a solid showing was Greater Toronto and parts of the Maritimes.

Sorry but it's the Libs that are the regional party.

The fact that the Libs could get as many seats with the most corrupt inneffectual regime known to Canada, says that those regions that voted Lib, will never vote anything but Lib.

Which is why the West (a vibrant, non-statist region) will be calling to get out.

I'm from Manitoba. I will be helping the western seperatist movement to include all the western provinces.

Sorry Ontario, but Western seperatism is real.

Just watch.

Posted by: chuckles at January 24, 2006 12:04 AM

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How can you make an argument against CPC being regional, but then turn around and say you want to separate the West?

This seems to be fantasy - with a Western-born party in power, separation is less likely than ever. Bottom line is the CPC did a poor job of selling themselves to urban centers. Everyone knows the Liberals are crooks and need to get voted out. But for the GTA to vote in a party whose various incarnations have spent the last part of a decade demonizing all that is Torontonian and Ontarian is a little far-fetched. The original Tories would have won this election AND last election, and I defy anyone on there to say otherwise. It is not just some love-affair with the Liberals that drives Ontario voting patterns.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:12 AM

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Paul Martin is speaking...

and...

he is going to be the official opposition

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 12:13 AM

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Paul Martin is going to step down...

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 12:14 AM

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HEEEEEEEEEEEEE"SS GOOOOOOOOOOOONE

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:14 AM

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Breaking: Paul Martin quits as Liberal party leader!

Posted by: Ed Minchau at January 24, 2006 12:15 AM

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PS - as an Ontarian, I'm REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY sorry for what my province-mates have done.

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:16 AM

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Oh my God, Craig Oliver is crying...

LOL

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:17 AM

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Alcock gone??

It's close but it looks like Reg is a goner.

Nice.

Posted by: biff at January 24, 2006 12:19 AM

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Martin is gone - good riddance. Hopefully the Liberal Party will implode and Stephen Harper will prosecute criminal politicians to the fullest. Now if the far right is smart, they'll take this opportunity to show what fiscal conservatism can do for the country. Quebec has already shown some interest. We know Ontario elects fiscal conservatives. Sew those up and you have the country. Again, it's silly to scream separatism when Canadians have done exactly what the West wants - vote the Liberals out.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:21 AM

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yeah chuckles i agree, cynapse...seems to have a problem with a few of his cynapses misfiring.... im from the west and the only thing that is keeping western seperation on a slow burn is the lack of a credible leader, but ontario and the maritimes beware....if we cannot have a equal say in our own country and we keep getting snubbed.....a leader will surface, and when a credible leader comes to light in western canada, seperation will take off like a prarie fire...................and that would be baad for the east......no money at all....50 percent or higher unemployment.....all corporations relocating to the west (as calgary has seen for years now)........no money at all for services.....can we say economic collapse...and third world status?

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 12:21 AM

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"Bottom line is the CPC did a poor job of selling themselves to urban centers."

There are a million people in Calgary. There are a million people in Edmonton. Please explain how it is that Calgary and Edmonton are not urban centers.

Or is Toronto the only urban center in Canada?

Posted by: Ed Minchau at January 24, 2006 12:23 AM

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Check CNN !

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:25 AM

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Cynapse,

The western seperatist party will not be the CPC.

But it's obvious that western ideals will never hold any material sway in this country.

It matters not that the cause is Ontario. That's like saying "you have cancer, you can't do anything about it, but we know what caused it".

Hey, BTW, don't shoot the messenger. Western Seperatism has been brewing and this will significantly add fuel to the fire. If you don't believe it, well you're not dealing with reality.

Perfect timing: I'm just listening to the commenters saying that Harper will not be able to fulfill his agenda.

A conservative/non-statist agenda will never be fulfilled in Canada as it is.

The west will seperate, and the east will be like the stagnant, statist Europe.

Too bad it will take another fifty years for the east to figure out that if more people want to take from the country, rather than contribute to it, that country cannot be sustained. Course by then, the west will be long gone, prosperous, envigorated and free.

Posted by: chuckles at January 24, 2006 12:27 AM

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What say does the West lack? It just seems to be a common battle cry for nationalists who happen to be enjoying a good economy. A Western-based party just won the election. Even the Liberals stayed far away from suggesting NEP Part 2. If you take away Ontario's transfer payment imbalance it is actually profitable, so it's not like the West (or more specifically Alberta) is the only economically viable area in Canada. Again, if you want to leave, no one can stop you ... but it would be an awful waste and over what?

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:27 AM

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Dewar in in Ottawa-Centre. Chow in in Trinity-Spadina. Cons with a weak minroty, to put it mildly--fewer than expected were buying that "move to the centre" nonsense.

So, what's next--a Bloc-CPC alliance? Buzz Hargrove avait raison! :)

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at January 24, 2006 12:28 AM

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When's Harper going to speak? He must be re-working is speech to a "shoot, shovel, and shut up" format for big Paulie...

On the urban thing - I live and work with Torontonians every day. They're mostly retards, and again I apologize profusely.

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:28 AM

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"There are a million people in Calgary. There are a million people in Edmonton. Please explain how it is that Calgary and Edmonton are not urban centers.
Or is Toronto the only urban center in Canada?"

I will qualify - urban centers that are not driven by some irrational hatred of the East. Without the religion of separation, the CPC did not rely on much. I was hoping to see more on lowering taxation, welfare reform, lowering deficits ... basically doing a Ralph Klein job on the country. And before anyone squawks, my family is originally from Edmonton - I have nothing against the West. But for some reason Westerners don't seem to understand that you can't insult a large group of people repeatedly then turn indignant when they don't vote for you. I have a feeling Harper is going to fix this issue very quickly, nonetheless.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:32 AM

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Cynapse,

Take a look the oil exploration/development chart of Sask and Alta. It literally shows development stopping on the border. (Kate at SDA had it on one of her posts.)

If you think the west is just about oil your way off base.

Hey, like I said, you don't have to agree with Western seperatism if you don't want to.

Watch the west have a referendum before Quebec does.

Posted by: chuckles at January 24, 2006 12:35 AM

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eastern canadians really should try and understand why the west feels alienated, or are they so arrogant and close - minded that it is just not worth their time to consider it......didnt sum1 once say ....... then let them eat cake???.....and where did that lead???

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 12:37 AM

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Lay off the Ontario bashing, we just changed Ottawa-West-Nepean from a 18-year liberal riding into a John Baird Conservative riding.

Posted by: Jonny_eh at January 24, 2006 12:38 AM

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IMHO the west SHOULD go. They keep getting ripped off by the corporate power centres in T.O. They should take their destiny into their own hands, focus North-South, and perhaps to Asia, and leave Ont. to whither.

(But please leave the border open - I'll be emigrating!)

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:40 AM

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It could happen ... and it would be a waste. Just because there happens to be more diversity in Ontario that prevents it from becoming a fundamentalist far-right province does not preclude cooperation, IMO. There's some question about the value of those who would turn tail and run at the first sign of trouble, rather than getting their hands dirty and fixing the problem. The only reason Western separation is even on the table is because Alberta is enjoying a boom and claim that federal politicians ignore them. The only reason Quebec separation is still on the table is because it is ecnomically viable via all the handouts Quebec has received from the Liberals. With Harper in government, both these factors are mitigated. Those who still want to campaign for separation are free to do so - this is a democracy.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:40 AM

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The West will likely give it one more election. Another slim CPC minority, or Lib victory, and the West is outta there.

Not a threat. Just a fact.

Talk to folks from the West.

It's real.

Posted by: chuckles at January 24, 2006 12:41 AM

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Stronach and Brison won't be around for long. Do you think they are actually gonna drive their own cars around Ottawa? Either Martin resigns, or the failed Liberals will execute their own plan to be rid of him.
It's F$#(!n" unbelieveable that Scott Simms won. What were the people in his riding thinking? If they were thinking at all.

Posted by: Alex at January 24, 2006 12:42 AM

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Had the Liberals won a minority tonight, Canada would cease to exist within two or three years in its present form.

Think about it for a moment. Think about just how close this country has come to breaking up. Had a dozen seats swung the other way, the Liberals would be in power.

As it is, there will be a recount in Glengarry-Prescott-Russell, in Parry Sound-Muskoka (only 21 votes difference!), and in St. Catherines; Ahuntsic and Louis-Hebert are still too close to call. Those seats could all theoretically go to the Libs.

In all, the difference between a Conservative minority and a Liberal minority has come down to only a few thousand votes. It was even less of a margin than the 1995 Quebec referendum.

That's how close we have come to splitting up the country. And it still might break: to Alberta, this was a referendum on whether Ontario wants Alberta to remain in Confederation. And apparently, the answer is no.

Posted by: Ed Minchau at January 24, 2006 12:43 AM

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chuckles, we've been hearing this since the early 90's. Ted Byfield has made a career out of calling doomsday. If the only alternative to separation is the extortion of forcing a majority of the population under the extremist rule of a minority (which does not even represent all of the West) then separation might be preferable. But it's doubtful. The Bloc has had more momentum than any separatist movement so far and they're staying put.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:46 AM

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Cynapse - you have some good points. The only reason Ontario is where it is today is because of the raping it does of other provinces. The centre of the universe branding on Toronto is not meant to be a compliment, but an attitude for a reason.

The way Confederation was designed and the way it is being run today, is Western resources supply central Canada's lust. Explain to me the Western Wheat Board.

Explain about the NEP, even Trudeau said it was to prevent transfer of power to the West.

Explain arts and entertainment grants going to Quebec, let alone aeronautical contracts instead of the West.

The biggest explaination I want is how Ontario as a majority voted Liberal again...even with all the scandals...that is better than a fundamentalist far-right province?

Give me a break.

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 12:48 AM

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Now there's an interesting campaign theme for the next election - "Vote CPC, or the West is gone." A different kind of fear applied to Ontario, but a campaign of fear nonetheless. And apparently that is the ONLY thing Ont. responds to. Harper should give it a go - no risk, no reward...

Posted by: LookingIn at January 24, 2006 12:50 AM

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Martin steps down. The Libs annoint a new savior. The press jumps on the bandwagon. The conservatives are out in 12 to 18 month max for another 10 years. This was the Conservative's big opportunity and it went nowhere. Canadians are more like Europeans who prefer to be bribed with their own money vs making their own money.

Posted by: Fritz at January 24, 2006 12:54 AM

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They say the Conservatives won, but it sure doesn't feel like it.
Let me tell you the really scary guy (Jack Layton)just finished talking.

Posted by: wiserdanu at January 24, 2006 12:56 AM

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its sad, but they really dont understand the root of the problem, to demean the problems in the west to simply liken westerners as spoiled fat rich brats with mouths full of cake complaining, shows that there is a big problem in canada...... i really love canada, but i am now a westerner first.

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 12:56 AM

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Breaking news folks....Alcock is GONE!!!!! Pity the folks in my riding weren't as bright. Anita Neville has gone from an ineffectual, invisible, Government Backbencher to the back ranks of the opposition. What do Liberals have to do in order that people stop voting for them?!?

Posted by: Watcher at January 24, 2006 12:56 AM

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And my vote was to change this. Funding and investment needs to be applied more evenly. No question here. But that doesn't explain the snipes at Ontario's "multiculturalism" and "ethnic diversity". The NEP was a mistake and this is why the government has treaded so carefully around it. It won't even be an issue under Harper. Also, Toronto isn't nearly as well funded as some of you seem to think - a large % of that "stolen" money goes in very few pockets.

So you want to know why Ontarians voted Liberal again ... (1) CPC still contains many members whose views resemble those of posters on this board. Would you vote for someone who considers you the devil? (2) Force of habit - many of these Liberals have been voted in for many years (3) CPC's campaign in Ontario was less than stunning. They could have capitalized on patching the holes for many more liberal shortcoming than they did. Expanding the TTC would have been nice. Increase in business loans and grants would have been good. Pleding to build the ecnomic sector in cheaper cities like London and Kitchener would have been a very good idea. We heard little of that.

As I put on the site, hopefully Harper's next government is a majority. However, he has to throw Ontario as big of a fish as he threw the West.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 12:57 AM

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I am not pleased with some of the comments I have read. My riding (all votes not quite counted, but...) looks set to return the pathetic Raymond Chan, but other than that, I am pretty happy. I eight months ago most CPC supporters had been given a choice - fight an election or accept a ~122 seat minority government, they would have taken the sure minority. The Liberals fought the dirtiest, slimiest campaign we have ever seen in Canada - and they still lost their government. They can't form the government, and on some issues that the Bloc is in favour of (can you say "hello, devolution of power?") they can't even come close to blocking them.

I attended the founding meeting of Reform in Vancouver - and the Party slogan was "the West Wants In." Now we have the first government headed by a westerner (by adoption - I know Harper was born in TO) since 1963, and people here are bitching about how the west should seperate. Ontario didn't vote against conservative policies - they voted agaist the 'scary Stephen Harper' that David Herle dragged out from the 2003 campaign closet. The CPC has a golden opportunity to prove that they aren't "scary" - they just have a different view of how extensive government should be, and that is is possible to have a successful country run on less interventionist lines. The next election people won't be voting against the 'scary' SH - or soldiers in the streets; let's hope they will be voting for (or against) a Party that has shown that they can govern responsibly, can represent the federal option for Quebec, and can represent and balance the interests of this whole enormous land. This is not a repudiation: this is a way point - let's not screw it up with some sort of sour grapes now.

Posted by: Deaner at January 24, 2006 01:09 AM

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A Pyrhhic victory for the CPC. As Fritz says, the Libs will be back in power in about two years.

-- A very disappointed ScottInCgy

Posted by: ScottInCgy at January 24, 2006 01:13 AM

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One reform that will help Tory futures will be a more equitable distribution of seats. BC & Alberta have the same population as Quebec but 11 fewer seats. Imagine if those seats were in play this election and the Cons won most of them. The minority would be much stronger.

Posted by: Fritz at January 24, 2006 01:14 AM

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The minority win for the Conservatives is a good start. Now Harper will have a chance to shine.

For folks who brag about their tolerance and diversity, the voters are a pretty closed-minded bunch. Worse yet, they're embracing the Liberals who've proven themselves unworthy of that confidence. How much corruption does it take before Ontario would finally admit there is a problem? I guess we'll never know.

Cynapse, how can you call the Conservatives a regional party? The Bloc is a regional party. The Conservatives ran candidates in all 308 ridings. Is it because Harper isn't from Central Canada?

What kinda of fish did Harper throw to the west? The opportunity to have their voices heard instead being told to sit quietly on the back benches?

It'll be hard for Harper to throw that kind of fish to Ontario. I guess he'll just have to win their hearts over with good government.

Posted by: Mac at January 24, 2006 01:21 AM

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Sorry Chuckles, but I'm from Alberta - we don't want Manitoba, thanks. We don't need another welfare, has not province.

Posted by: Joe at January 24, 2006 01:23 AM

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Cynapse:

The extreme right label that gets tagged onto a ot of Westerners like me isn't too accurate. I'm happy that Harper has made progress. I'm glad that some people in Ontario embraced him.

I don't think that you have much of an idea what we're talking about when we say we're going to separate. We don't want to extort Ontario, or bash it so that we can get more. We're diverse and tolerant. We're also confident. We consider ourselves Canadians, and if we leave Ontario we won't look at it the way Ontario will: you'll see us leaving Canada; we'll see ourselves leaving Ontario.

More scary for you (especially if you buy the BS that we're extreme) is the chance that we might not stop at a minority and we might not separate. So far Harper's shown himself to be a smart guy. He's united the right, (Manning and Day couldn't do that) beaten the Liberals into a minority, and then taken power from them, and to top it off, he's taken a few rounds out of the Bloc in Quebec (9 seats).

All in all I'm happy to say I'm a scary conservative with a hidden agenda, and have been since Preston Manning asked for my vote.

Posted by: Rob Chipman at January 24, 2006 01:25 AM

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Mac:

1) Harper is from Central Canada. Born right here in Toronto

2) Regional Party doesn't just refer to where seats are being run. Just as Alberta continually rebuffs the Liberals, Ontarians know full well when a party is offering them nothing. The CPC didn't attempt to offer Ontarians anything worthwhile until the last couple of years.

It's ridiculous to think a large population is going to suddenly switch stream in the absense of a personal abuse as extreme as the NEP (especially when the alternative has built its rep in the past demonizing that population). Give it time, let Harper's new cabinet run a tight and efficient government. Ontario did vote in Mike Harris.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 01:29 AM

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C'mon guys, we just elected a new government, where a most of the members are from the west. Even though the Tories didn't win as many seats as I expected (I said 151), Harper deserves a chance to try and make things better before everyone starts banging the drums of seperation. Harper has proven time and time again that he can work with others and bring people together. That being said, I think greater Toronto has proven they will continue to vote Liberal no matter the crime, theft, scandal, etc. which if you ask me is truely pathetic. What I see as a big development is how well the Tories did in Quebec, which is where I think they have the most to gain in the future so long as they can prove they can do positive things for the people of Quebec. If Harper can deliver results on the fiscal imbalance and respect the provincal powers in the constitution then we will have a chance in a few years to build on the success of today. The Tory victory tonight was a victory for federalism and for Canada. I still believe the best is yet to come.

Posted by: Andrew at January 24, 2006 01:31 AM

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Rob:

You're using scarecrow tactics. No one has called Harper scary. CU's said just the opposite. Furthermore, you talk about embracing Harper's unifying effect in one breath and gleefully separating the next. The latter half of your sentiment won't get much out of Harper. He just said "The west wanted in, The west is now in". That is the best possible result for the country.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 01:39 AM

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Mr. Harper delivered a noble speech. I wish him well.

Myself I'd show my disappointment to the Maritimes and Ontario, but at the same time willing to work with them.

Wonder how many noses got out of joint because he said the "West is in" and "God bless Canada".

cheers
tom

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 01:50 AM

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Cynapse:

Alberta rebuffs Liberals because they don't like being condescended to by politicans from Ontario & Quebec. Who can blame them?

Of course, here on the Lotus Coast, the trade unions are pretty deeply entrenched which makes for fertile ground for NDP, Liberals and other forms of fungus.

What exactly should the Conservatives "offer" Ontario? Another chance to impose the NEP? How about the Conservative offer Ontario a veto on all programs since they know so much better than the rest of us?

That being said, I'm with Andrew. It was a victory and, in the long run, it might be better for Canada and the Conservative Party to have a minority so all political parties can start to work together to everyone's benefit.

Posted by: Mac at January 24, 2006 01:51 AM

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cynapse....we want canada to be strong..strong for all canadians, just cause harper didnt give ontario another gorging in the money trough, doesnt mean that he wont be good for the whole country, somthing central canada has to realize is that the glory days of the free ride for ontario is at an end..now canada will have a voice from all canadians and will be run equally for all canadians...i really hope this will happen ...because if it doesn't ..make no mistake..we will leave.........

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 01:54 AM

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How about the Conservatives offer Ontario good government, honor its funding promises to Toronto and stop running it into a deficit to fund expensive federalist initiatives in Quebec that turn into scandals? Hopefully that's not too much to ask. And some of you seriously have a complex - as though the average Ontarian hides in his basement thinking about how best (s)he can screw over the West. Take a trip over here - your characterization might be good for rabble-rousing but it simply doesn't represent reality. Harper wants to be a leader for the ENTIRE country and if you have any interest in his success whatsover you will support his efforts instead of feeding ammo to his enemies. I for one am going to support him as a Canadian, untrendy as it may be.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 01:56 AM

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I congratulate conservatives and wait with cautious optimism to see what Stephen Harper will do. I think his breakthrough in Quebec is superb news for everyone, and feel that, though his challenge is huge, he's already shown some promising political smarts when it comes to forging coalitions and herding cats.

That said... one thing I've noticed on every cpc-ish blog I've checked is continuous personal abuse towards Torontonians.

Note that not just Toronto, but Vancouver and Montreal as well - almost one third of the country's population - haven't elected a single conservative. Personally, I am trying hard to learn more about the sources of western alienation, and I hope more of us easterners do as well. Meanwhile I encourage some of you to take a closer look at the big messy cities, where pluralism is the single fact of life.

Posted by: Infiltrating Liberal at January 24, 2006 01:57 AM

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It's interesting that these posters are so quick to point the finger at the east when the CPC's performance in BC was the biggest disappointement of all (a decline, in fact).

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 02:01 AM

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"So you want to know why Ontarians voted Liberal again ... (1) CPC still contains many members whose views resemble those of posters on this board. Would you vote for someone who considers you the devil?"

- well if the shoe fits...look in the mirror, how can you still say with a straight face you rather vote for a PROVEN scam greed driven party because some posters on here are more vocal than the usual Eastern Canadian the rolls over and sleeps?

"(2) Force of habit - many of these Liberals have been voted in for many years"

- Hmm could mean narrow minded bigoted and devil worshippers ;-) I keep banging my head against the wall because, well "force of habit". Give me a break.

"(3) CPC's campaign in Ontario was less than stunning."

...and the Liberals was stellar right?

"They could have capitalized on patching the holes for many more liberal shortcoming than they did."

-They could just rolled over and played the Quebec thing you mean.

"Expanding the TTC would have been nice. Increase in business loans and grants would have been good. Pleding to build the ecnomic sector in cheaper cities like London and Kitchener would have been a very good idea. We heard little of that."

- What about Moosebreath Saskatchewan? What about Prince George, BC? Is there a reason why Ontario is doing so poorly, hint: unions and palm greasing.

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 02:07 AM

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no, its any1 that would vote for a corrupt bunch of cronies, for personal gain. as opposed to voting for a new face that will clean up the country, thats what makes makes people...its amazing any1 would vote for them after what they did...wait until the cases are reopened and we truly see how deep the rabbithole goes.........then how will the country look at the people who supported them...i think we may see a lot of belinda stronach's crossing the floor to to cpc side...like rats abandoning a sinking ship....

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 02:09 AM

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The only thing that the maritimes are good for is a testing ground for nerve gas!

Posted by: D-Man at January 24, 2006 02:10 AM

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tomax, it sounds like your mind is made up and there is no progress to be made. One could easily tar you with your own brush by suggesting that Calgary's willingness to re-elect a man who considers Nelson Mandela a terrorist must be proxy make them rednecks. Of course you know it's more complicated than that. It's a shame you can't project this logic onto anyone else. C'est la via.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 02:10 AM

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True, BC's showing is sad, but then again as one poster said, the fungus is growing there also.

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 02:10 AM

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To kick a dead horse, but has anyone found where those thousands of student votes ended up?

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 02:12 AM

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Actually ... ranting and raving on the internet is very commonplace. It's in real life people "roll over". I would consider blaming all one's problems on a simplistic characterization of another people (whether it's the West against Ontario or Canadians against Americans) to be rolling over. It's much more difficult to attack the actual root causes of a problem. At least Harper is committed to attacking the roots, and he still start hopefully be prosecuting the criminals that hijacked the "other" national party.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 02:17 AM

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Cynapse, when you see a questionalbe vote in the last election exposed, you see dozens of scams surfacing and either covered up, or glossed over, and you see the corruption from a distance, how could I not make up my mind something is wrong with Liberal voters?

There was a time when you did business in Toronto and said you were from Calgary, you were literally laughed at to your face. Now, "hidden agenda's" and NEPII (Kyoto) and other who knows what was coming down the pipe before the vote of nonconfidence stopped it.

Look at Newfoundland. Promised off shore control and then "whoops" nope. Same thing with dealing with the NDP.

Gay marriage, lowering of age of concent, liberal judges giving maybe 8 years for murder, is my mind made up.

Well if it is, it wasn't by my doing.

Posted by: tomax at January 24, 2006 02:19 AM

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Again, this could be turned against Calgary as well, who had no problem voting in Robin "Mandela is a Communist" Anders. But unlike you, many people realize that there are many factors that go into a person's vote. I'm sure most Calgarians have a positive view of Mandela, but they have a very negative view of their federal government and did not see it worth their while to vote against Anders on a single issue. Now I may take issue with that, but I know it is was not the prelude to some huge Calgarian Klan rally. The CPC in Toronto is still fairly disorganized. The Liberals are a long-established, well-oiled machine with many business contacts and resources at their disposal in the economic center of Canada. It's going to take more than a couple scandals to upset that balance. After this term, the balance will be changed somewhat as Western influence comes to Parliament Hill. Progress is iterative.

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 02:25 AM

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I am in support of Western Separation as well ... I don't see Canada working its way out of minority governments. The nation is irretrievably fractured and its time to leave the East to its own devices, and go our own way.

Canada had its chance and the 'entitled classes' have thrown it away.

Posted by: Xenophon at January 24, 2006 02:36 AM

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I STILL THINK THEY CHEATED !

Posted by: Chris from Victoria, BC at January 24, 2006 02:56 AM

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denial of service attack

Posted by: Chris from Victoria, BC at January 24, 2006 03:25 AM

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I share your well founded misgivings about 2/3rds of Canadians who fell for the fear Harper drivel that has been dripping daily from the MSM for the last year.
How could they be so gullible?

As I write this Paul Martin is saying there will be another chance, another time.

That*s the best news we could hope for this night. By saying that, Paulie is saying there is no scheme to steal back Harper's and our win by plotting a cimbines power grab with Jacko's NDPeers.

Harper and the team will prove over time that the fear propaganda was a Librano lie.

Once that is out of the way, the next election should be a Conservative sweep and the ideal house should also gain more greens over NDP for balance.

If voting fraud is found to be substantial in Edmonton and Surrey Newton, there could well be a few more conservatives headed for Ottawa.

I enjoy our victory and lament not at all. TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at January 24, 2006 03:36 AM

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BC votes like retards. It happens so often that the MSM see it a positive thing ... they call it contrary voting. I can't remember ever having anyone elected in my riding on the government side of the house either provincially or federally ... sometimes good, sometimes bad. BTW: We made the switch from conservative to liberal last night after 13 years.

Posted by: ural at January 24, 2006 04:02 AM

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"coalition????????
How about these words:
Western Seperation.
Or these words:
Western Seperation.
Or the ever popular:
Western Seperation.
Posted by: chuckles at January 23, 2006 11:35 PM"

"ontario and maritimes voted for criminals that also take care of them......not good for my canada...i think were gonna have a seperation comin soon......western anger will seeth if they form a coalition government, and martin retains power.......
Posted by: slim at January 23, 2006 11:52 PM"

Why does it not surprise me that the two people calling for "western seperation" don't know how to spell the word "separation"?

Posted by: Jimmy Dell at January 24, 2006 05:02 AM

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I don't get it, Alberta is at the forefront of a victory, and half you guys want out of Confederation. Sure you didn't see the CPC get the victory you wanted, but the one thing Alberta has NEVER understood is that Ontario is like 4 different provinces. You have the North, based on resources and spread out, much like the hinterland out west. You have Ottawa and Eastern Ontario, You have the central and 905 area, you have Niagara and South Western Ontario, and you have Toronto with more seats than 5 provinces.

It aint easy to win enough seats in those 5 regions to push you over the top, especially if you didn't win squat in the Atlantic Provinces. Ten seats in Quebec is super, but it is 10 out of 75. For all you guys in Alberta, drop the Separatist nonsense, Harper will make damned sure change is coming. Also, kick BC in the rear, they actually turned on the Conservatives. At least you are making ground up down here. The Libreals are low life scum collectively, but for the most part, they have a lot of good people working for them down here, and they found a way to pull out more votes than I figured they would.

I cannot see tonight as a total loss, but nor is it a total victory. Having said that, Martin is gone, and the Libs are going to rip themselves apart trying to find a way to way to find a leader that people can look to. The NDP will do what they always do, shoot everyone to the right and in the end, plant a bullet in their feet.

Harper did what was thought impossible, he put together a movement with the remnants of the PC's, gave it a platform that was moderate enough to get votes without being a betrayel of what you want out there. Frankly, the last 30 to 40 seats Harper needed for a majority were there to be had if they didn't play defense the last 2 weeks. No new CPC commercials, no new ideas unveiled, no new frontal attacks. The Libs spent the last 2 weeks hurling negative crap at the CPC and it works ....it was an disgrace and a lie, and I hate the Libs for it, but that crap works.

Harper will pull this deal out, you watch. As for you Alberta Separtists, you just have to learn a little about democracy...she is a fickle ole gal and she needs to be romanced a little....

Posted by: Mark in Bowmanville at January 24, 2006 05:39 AM

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First I've got to say that I'm disgusted by the visciouness of some of the language in use on these boards. Not exactly the best way to accomodate meaningful debate. Take your "retard" comments elsewhere.

As an Ontarian I have the following points to make:

1) Ontarians are not ignorant, stupid, nor are we "sheep". These are pointless slanders that lend little credibility to your voice. I could very easily argue that Conservatives on this board are sheep, but I won't.

Ontarians are folks of many stripes and colours and are highly urbanized. We look to Europe for ideas in governance just as Albertans look south, no better no worse but different. In fact I think it's part of what makes Canada great--that we draw from the best of the European and US systems.

For Ontarians, the policies of any party hoping to govern can vary remarkably as long as the following two principles are upheld: the budget is balanced and social conservatism kept in check.

Ontarians didn't vote for Martin because we enjoy supporting corrupt parties but because we felt the need to "hold our noses" to prevent the resurgence of old debates long ago settled and to keep in check the power and spending of Harper's largely inexperienced and unkown caucus (we remember the Mike Harris disaster vividly).

2) Stop talking as if the "West" is a bloc unto itself. B.C, Sask, and Manitoba all have deeply entrenched socialist roots and a love for this country and to assume those folks are ready to take to the streets is hardly more than a gross presumption.

3) Alberta is surely a great place to live. Of that there is no doubt. Please stop to think if Alberta would be in that same great position having joined the American federation? Or having gone at it alone? You must acknowledge that while there have been a few stumbles along the way, Canada as been very good to Alberta.

Albertans on this board seem quick to forget the importance of Ontario as a complimentary political and economic counter-balance. When times are tough for Ontario we usually find a thriving Alberta in a position to help keep the country the float. The reverse has been the case in the past and may well be the case in the future as the oil industry peaks and then winds down over the next 50 years.

Instead of hurling insults and tooting the horns of separism why not be excited that our left leaning nation has given Harper, a well-known social conservative set to spend billions of dollars funding tax cuts, the military, and addresing the so-called "fiscal imbalance," a limited mandate to show us what he can do. Be assured that if Harper backburners the social conservative agenda, with a balanced budget, Ontarians will see little reason not to endorse Harper further, buoying him to majority rule.

Posted by: Aaron at January 24, 2006 05:51 AM

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I'm an Albertan, Mark, and I think I'm with you on this one. I've been vacillating between hope and disgust all night, but I've finally settled on hope.

It's not quite what we wanted, but we CAN make it work. Don't forget guys, that we're marathoners, not sprinters. We stumble, but we don't quit the race.

It took our first premier almost 20 years to win autonomy for Alberta.

PET tried to flatten us with the NEP, but 30ish years later, we came back bigger and better than ever before.

We started the Reform Party in '93, and in 12 years, it's expanded, evolved, and nationalised.

We've got a strong, intelligent leader who's got just the right mix of New Alberta and Old Ontario Blue. We'll win this thing. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Posted by: RL at January 24, 2006 06:05 AM

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Aaron -

You've got some good points, but I'd argue that the whole 'social conservative' thing is (some of)Ontario's hangup, not ours.

We're not voting for Cons for those reasons, and I'm not really very socon myself, but I do find it rather incredulous that millions of people decide the future of the country based on the mere suspicion that one party might put restrictions on abortion or call gay marriages 'unions' instead.

Furthermore, I don't think it's at all accurate to portray the way the Ontario voted this time as a strategic decision to limit the Cons' power, though that may be the result. Just as the West is not a bloc, neither is Ontario. I think my first paragraph is a better explanation of the way the vote went.

Posted by: RL at January 24, 2006 06:33 AM

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What a morally bankrupt nation Kanada is.
I mean SERIOUSLY; after ALL that has happened in the last 12-13 years of Liberal corruption, mismanagement and outright fraud...they are awarded 103 SEATS???!!!...appalling.

It's like giving a convicted serial murderer a 90 day suspended sentence to be served in his house.

Makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: Manny at January 24, 2006 07:49 AM

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Given the tone of those who wanted a Tory majority, Ontario may have just saved Canada from the inverse of the perceived tyranny spoken of by these separatists. BTW, how come the Western Concept's numbers are so low? Surely they'd be a better fit for these posters?

Posted by: Cynapse at January 24, 2006 08:23 AM

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Im from Ontario Cynapse.
The Liberal socialist tyranny of the last 13 years hallmarked by corruption, mismanagement and outright fraud is what were talking about; not being a morally bankrupt leftwing weasel trying to defend his pc 'special interest' stack of the confiscated tax dollars of those same westerners in the main.
Kanada. Makes me want to vomit.

Posted by: Manny at January 24, 2006 08:51 AM

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All I can say right now is that I am thrilled with the outcome of the election. A minority is better than nothing.
I think once Stephen Harper, has the chance to show the GTA, that he is not "scary", as the Liberals have brainwashed them to think, then perhaps a CPC majority will ensue next election.
Well I can dream can't I?
I believe that this CPC minority is going to be a win win situation for Canadians.
My patriotism couldn't have sunk any lower under the Liberals, now I have hope, faith and a renewed sense of spirit in Canada.
We have won the first battle and I am confident we will when the next one too.
God bless Canada!

Posted by: at January 24, 2006 09:46 AM

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oops guess that shouldve been sank...forgive me I have yet to get to bed (7:46a.m Tues).

Posted by: at January 24, 2006 09:47 AM

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You know what, I think that teh Conservative victory is great. Only problem is, it's not complete. We'll probably be back to the polls in another year or so, and that's when we can tell. A Liberal victory, and that's game over folks. Whatever you say about Alberta and western separation, the only reason Quebec is still here is because the Conservatives won a victory. I'm with the people here who think B.C. needs to get a swift kick in th rear end for baiting and switching on the Liberals. I don't have as much of a problem with the NDP because they're honest far-lefties, and vote by their 'principles,' but come one, you should've taken out the Liberals, who haven't done jack squat for you! At least Svend Robinson didn't win his seat.

But I think the trend of western separatism has come from the way the Liberals set their paradigm for ruling when they won thirteen long years ago: a nation of minorities. Everyone thinks that they are special and deserve all sorts of special treatment despite whatever minority they are in. The West is by far a minority in number and in power, but they haev a chance to finally make things right. Here's to hoping Prime Minister Stephen Harper can pull it off!

Posted by: overthesea at January 24, 2006 12:05 PM

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Reviewing this thread today is very interesting in many ways.

I knew the on-going drip of fear Harper agenda would make for a surprising resistace to voting conservative, but to allow the Liberals to get 104 seats is a bloody miracle.

The question then must be; How can Canadians overlook 200 plus serious frauds and scams and still vote Liberal?

The most likely answer then must be they were not fully aware of the totality of those scams.

Canadians hear of a scam here or read about a scam there but not once have we seen a full listing of scams by number in any Main stream media.

If real Liberal scam summary lists had been listed in the papers, the Liberal returns may have been far less than 104.

It is great that we are on the way to recovery, however we have come much too close
to a fatal rot in the fabric of Canada.

Hundreds of corrupt Liberals and civil servants have committed huge criminal theft of our public monies. If these criminals are allowed to go without penalty, then our system may be headed to a miserable life of graft and bribes like that of India.

If we want to keep important things in Canadian Life like permits, business licenses, drivers licensing, and other staples of living in a clean and reliable state, penalties must be meted out to the crooks, frauds and kickback artists.

Living with the habit of providing bribes every time you want to do something is hell. TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at January 24, 2006 03:02 PM

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I also hope that harper can bring this country together, i also hope that the criminals (libs)will at least try and let him have a shot at his platforms, i think they are good in principal...but in the back of my mind i dont think he will be given a fair crack at it...and i think the house will soon return to sounding like feeding time at some insane asylum as usual and egos and arguing will make the government innefectual...again.....i really hope i am wrong

i'm not for splitting up canada but i fear that all this election proved is that the divisions in canada run painfully deep......i hope harper can pull it off( or at least be given the OPEN-MINDED chance to try)

Posted by: slim at January 24, 2006 03:13 PM

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"The only thing that the maritimes are good for is a testing ground for nerve gas!"

Which is precisely why I'm relieved that Harper's wings were clipped in the January 23rd election. Expect more of this sort of thing to bubble up to the surface as his mandate progresses.

What, Angry, no howls of outrage? Maybe if the writer had referred to, say, a maritimer cruise and the Achille Lauro?

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at January 24, 2006 06:24 PM

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Someday perhaps we'll hear some of the more offensive and arrogant posters here whine and cry how much they love the West, and plead "don't leave" ... we'll speak more of "wing clipping" then, I think.

Posted by: Xenophon at January 24, 2006 11:19 PM

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Well, there's the Right in a nutshell, and I use the word advisedly. All threats, mutters and dark thoughts. Took a matter of hours. Nerve gas and western separation, oh my.

Reminds me of the "22 Minutes" piece on e-day: "Stephen Harper bit the head off a bunny yesterday. In front of hundreds of horrified onlookers, he said 'What? Too soon?'"

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at January 25, 2006 11:13 AM

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No one's going to whine or plead, Xenophon ... except maybe separatists when they realize the party they've elected have no intention of becoming the Bloc Alberta. The NEP died years ago, so that dependency upon which you seem to think the entire country should kiss your feet is invalid. We'll see how Separatist the Tories become after sampling the spoils of Ottawa (*looks at Bloc*)

Posted by: Cynapse at January 25, 2006 12:53 PM

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