Without any offense intended to those who are Muslims...

I think it is awfully hypocritical that they attack an 'editorial insulting Islam' by threatening destruction of those who created it.

Even if the cartoon was in bad taste, their response goes way, way over the line.

I've yet to see Christians demonstrate like that for being called names, or being insulted.

Posted by: Patricia at February 3, 2006 02:52 PM

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I wish they would protest by going back to where they came from. Keep the cartoons coming, maybe some day they'll see themselves for what they are. The biggest anal pores on this planet.

Posted by: Ron at February 3, 2006 03:03 PM

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Muslim nations have no real experience with a free press, so anything seen in the western press, is assumed to be a statement of that nation's government or political establishment.

A lot people assume everything everywhere is the same is it is at home.

Some of these cartoons go over the edge, and are out and out racist, but if we value free speech, we have to defend the right of people to publish them. But does free speech give you the right to be offensive?

Posted by: Curtis at February 3, 2006 03:05 PM

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I too have posted cartoons, albeit only a photograph of a newspaper that carried them. I'm now watching my back and am having trouble sleeping.

Posted by: The Western Critic at February 3, 2006 03:09 PM

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The only way to give them the experience of free press is to demo it for them.

Free speech does give you the right to be offensive and blasphemous. That's what 'free' means. There are 44 meanings for the word in the Webster's dictionary. None of the meanings say anything about offensive or blasphemous.

If you don't like what you hear or see you are FREE to go.

Posted by: Ron at February 3, 2006 03:23 PM

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do you really think you could find even 50 willing to wave placards demanding that an entire continent be put to the sword for the perceived sins of one person?

Sure, I'm sure Phelps and Co. would be happy to oblige.

Posted by: RP. at February 3, 2006 03:24 PM

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This controversy illustrates the remarkable self-contradictory thought patterns of certain conservatives:

* The invasion of Iraq was justified because it liberated millions of Muslims from Saddam’s rule. Muslims are good people who deserve to be free.
* Liberals are hypocrites because they believe in social justice and they claim they stand up for Muslims. Don’t our friends the Muslims deserve to be free of the tyranny of dictators like Saddam?
* Liberals are enemies of our culture and tradition because they support the portrayal of Christianity in a bad light, claiming freedom of speech. Freedom of speech shouldn’t cover this [insert reference to “disgusting” piece of art here]. Liberals digust me in their lack of respect for Christian traditions.
* Muslims are upset by this insulting portrayal of Muhammed. They don’t understand that in the West we maintain freedom of speech and expression as the core of our values.
* Muslims are angry and are getting violent as a result of these cartoons. Cartoons! Why would anyone get angry over a cartoon? What a bunch of evil maniacs. They’re clearly bent on destroying the world.
* Look at these hypocritical liberals. See how evil the people are that they’ve been defending? The response to these cartoons in the Muslim world is clear evidence that Muslims are a bunch of homicidal terrorists.

There are two major political groups who want to make this issue far larger than it is: hardline Islamists, and hardline Muslim-baiting conservatives. The interests of both are served by inflaming the "clash of civilizations" concept.

Posted by: Ade at February 3, 2006 03:28 PM

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"I wish they would protest by going back to where they came from. Keep the cartoons coming, maybe some day they'll see themselves for what they are. The biggest anal pores on this planet."

And now, who is the bigot, Wrongo Rono? Another case of Liberal Pot & Kettle disease?

If you don't like the cartoon in the newspaper, you're FREE not to buy it ever again. Unlike state sponsored art, where we are not free to refuse to pay for it.

Posted by: Curtis at February 3, 2006 03:34 PM

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Religion of Peace my ass. What doesn't make these people angry? Frankly, I am sick and tired of their bitching, pissing, moaning, and ceaseless demands. Belua multorum es capitum.

Posted by: Agent Orange at February 3, 2006 03:35 PM

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And aren't we lucky in Canada now. We have our VERY OWN elected muslim extremist. Mr. Algebra Abracadabra. And surprise-surprise, he is a Liberal member in the T.O. area.

Horny Toad

Posted by: Horny Toad at February 3, 2006 03:43 PM

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It also seems oddly hypocritical to justify war because of some angry sign-waving, but criticize people who justify jihad because of some silly cartoon drawing.

Two sides of the same coin.

Posted by: Ade at February 3, 2006 03:45 PM

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I really think it is time to rent a fleet of planes bound for the middle east. If they feel so upset by freedom why are they here in the first place? They were free to leave their country, we are free to send them back!!

Posted by: Sheryl at February 3, 2006 03:46 PM

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Are not those signs an incite to violence?

In a country in which they have the freedom to make their point loudly without resort to violence in the streets?

From the TV news, it appears to me that the leaders of the crowd do speak very good English and obviously understand that they are exercising a liberty that is well-protected. Far better protected than in the societies from which most of the crowd have migrated.

Somehow they cannot, even in their protest signs and chants, accord the same respect to published cartoons. And, somehow, they place these signs prominently and their spokesmen defend these chants and incites to the reporters and TV audiences.

The clash of civilizations exists. It must be reported. Not brushed off with complaints about those so observing it as being hypocrits.

Posted by: Chairm at February 3, 2006 03:53 PM

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I support the reproduction of the cartoons in question. I'm concerned by the number of media outlets that have been pressured to censor themselves that have actually bowed to the pressure.

It's not about Islam, or the content. The issue is that some of the press in the western world feels sufficiently threatened (economically, physically, politically) that they are censoring themselves.

Focusing on the issue of Islam here simply leads to anti-Moslem & pro-Moslem cooks coming out of the woodworks. At that point, the critical issue of freedom of the press gets ignored because everyone's too busy being a bigot.

Posted by: Andrew at February 3, 2006 04:00 PM

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Diplomatic protest and boycotts against cartoons are fine. However taking hostages and threatening violence against innocent citizens of some European states is an unacceptable response. So is attempting to storm European diplomatic missions (as opposed to peaceful demonstration).

Indeed, this is the kind of response that simply confirms the impression in many Western minds that at least some Muslims have a very different standard of the appropriate response to offence.

That the actions of some Muslims should create an impression that may negatively affect views of Muslims in general is unfortunate and one expects those actions to be condemned by other Muslims.

The wider Muslim response to the cartoons suggests that Muslims are unwilling to accept the range of discourse that Western societies generally have decided to permit within themselves. These are societies that now permit what until recently would be considered sacreligious depictions of Christ, not to mention many other actions by the media and artistic community that cause pain to many Christians.

While Muslims have every right to be offended they do not have the right to impose their view of acceptable discourse on non-Islamic societies. Debate and democratic political action are always open to them. Placards advocating murder do not, to my mind, constitute debate legal though they may be in Britain. Such placards once again only bring the cause of the Muslims into disrepute, and make one wonder why many choose to live in societies so clearly alien to their beliefs.

Mark
Ottawa

Posted by: Mark Collins at February 3, 2006 04:01 PM

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Mark: "Placards advocating murder do not, to my mind, constitute debate legal though they may be in Britain."

Are these incites legal in Britain? I think this may be more the case of low-touch enforcement of the law.

Is it against the law to publicly incite violence?

Posted by: at February 3, 2006 04:08 PM

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Boortz weighs in:

http://boortz.com/nuze/200602/02032006.html

Posted by: b_C at February 3, 2006 04:11 PM

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I'm no expert but any one who can't see the next World War, somewhat because of the lack of multiple super powers, will be Muslim radicals vs. Secular/Christian/Democratic people. is not learning from history. ie. Hitler's tesing of the waters in Europe without any significant response.

Posted by: B.C. Mayo at February 3, 2006 04:28 PM

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It would seem that Hugh Hewitt has taken a somewhat different view:

The cartoons were in bad taste, an unnecessary affront to many of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, just as Joel Stein affronted the military, the families and friends of the military, and as Toles did the same to the wounded, and their families, friends and admirers.

Of course each of them had the absolute right to publish their screed, and the Dutch (and now Norwegian) governments must reply to demands that these papers be punished with a steely refusal to be dictated to as to their culture of free expression and the protection of the vulgar and the stupid.

But don't cheer the vulgar and the stupid.

There are hundreds of thousands of American troops deployed in Iraq, Afghanistan and across the globe among Muslim peoples who they are trying to befriend. The jihadists like nothing more than evidence that these troops represent a West intent on a new crusade and a new domination of Muslims. Idiot cartoonists make our troops' jobs more difficult, and the jihadists' mission easier.

Will I reproduce those cartoons on my blog? No. Not because I don't support freedom of speech, but precisely because I do -- and I refuse to be stampeded into the "me-too"ism that tends to pervade the blogosphere's "long tail."

There are other stories that have my concern, like that ferry that went down in Egypt. I want to know what happened, not because I suspect terrorism but because I am a sailor and I don't like the idea of ships sinking without an explanation.

By the way, Angry, which of your posts should I pick for the next Standard?

Posted by: PhantomObserver at February 3, 2006 04:37 PM

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People in a free country exercising their free speech rights in an organized protest are generally given broad leeway by law enforcement, as attempts to quell the more extreme incitements is considered to be judging the boundaries of free speech.

Repeat those same statements outside of an organized protest and you (generally) don't have the right to incite hatred and violence.

I don't mind that a few Muslims are upset. What I do mind is the calls to censorship of private speech and the double standard of much of the western media - willing to offend some groups (Christian, Jewish) but treading lightly with others (Muslim, Bhuddist).

Posted by: Paul O at February 3, 2006 04:39 PM

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In Canada we have 'hate crimes' laws that forbid advocacy of harming someone for whatever freedom of expression they manifest. Let's enforce Canada's hate crime laws.

Europe has risen to the challenge of the basic difference between freedom and fascism on this issue.

Posted by: brock at February 3, 2006 04:47 PM

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In Canada we have 'hate crimes' laws that forbid advocacy of harming someone for whatever freedom of expression they manifest. Let's enforce Canada's hate crime laws.

Europe has risen to the challenge of the basic difference between freedom and fascism on this issue. see analysis on this:

http://boortz.com/

Posted by: brock at February 3, 2006 04:50 PM

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I have seen the cartoons in question and I too have found them to be at best in questionable taste; at worst offensive. However, the Muslim extremists seem to forget one very important point.

Mohamed was a MAN, a Prophet. He is now being accorded the same status as Allah, YAWEH or GOD. What gives????

I have read and seen in the media that Muslims do not insult other religions or the practitioners of other religions.

I would like the practitioners of Islam (particularly the clerics) to explain the bombing of Christian churches in Pakistan and the murder of innocents who simply want to practice the tenets of their beliefs. This is not only murder but a grievous insult to Christianity. What happened to the Muslim belief that MUSLIMS, JEWS and CHRISTIANS are "Followers of the Book"?

To be so insecure in the righteousness of your beliefs is pitiful.

Cheers

Gerry

Posted by: gerryinmontreal at February 3, 2006 04:52 PM

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With free speech comes the responsibility of having to hear it and to decide on your own whether or not to continue hearing. This does not then give you the right to disallow others in exercising their own responsibity. This is the rule in the 21st century.

In the 13th century - where the radical Muslim mine set is at - these principles do not apply. The Muslim civil war continues to draw everyone into its whirlwind and we in the modern world must continue to resist being drawn into it.

Posted by: Fiumara at February 3, 2006 04:56 PM

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If you're excessively "sensitive", you're damaged in some way. Radical Muslims are giving 'politically correct' 'sensitivity' a bad name."identity group" based fascism, based on ideological labelling and name calling, is also to be found amongst our leftist 'rabble' funtamentalism of 'political thought by formula'.

Posted by: brock at February 3, 2006 05:00 PM

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Bah, I was posting Muslim photoshops months ago and took heat for it. Those of us on the vanguard of free speech aren't terribly impressed with those who only speak up for free speech when the mainstream media gives them the go ahead to do so. It's not like this sort of thing hasn't been happening for years.

Posted by: Anonalogue at February 3, 2006 05:06 PM

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Curtis Said: "Some of these cartoons go over the edge, and are out and out racist, but if we value free speech, we have to defend the right of people to publish them." Let us not forget that racist, savage, ethnocentric, hate-filled bile fills the media of Islamic countries. These cartoons are unbelievably tame compared to what Muslims publish, against us, in their own press.

These people are 1400 year old barbarians and let's not forget it. This is a clash of civilizations, and I for one am still waiting for the so-called "majority" of peace loving muslims to be heard. The sound of crickets chirping is getting unnerving. We get the occasional rational pronouncement from some muslim mucky muck, but for the most part there is dangerous, evil, silence.

And finally, let's not forget that our own "progressive" class has been excusing these people for years, including the terrorists. They've blamed Christians, neocons, American hegemony, and just about everything important in our culture on the "anger" of the Arab street. It's time to call bullshit and defend our way of life, and that means standing up to the "progressive" class which loves to hate its own culture.

Posted by: debris trail at February 3, 2006 05:09 PM

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Author: Batman

We wake up this morning to see video on CNN showing rampaging Muslims around the world. In Europe, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim ... Muslim Mobs spreading mayhem. It seems that these mighty mad Muslims are rioting and firing their ever-present AK-47s into the air because of cartoons. Yup ... this latest epidemic of Muslim outrage comes to us because some newspapers in Norway and Denmark published some cartoons depicting Mohammed. In fact ... here is one of my favorites!

Admit it, this turban/bomb thing could be the next big fashion hit on the Muslim street!

Muslim outrage huh. OK ... let's do a little historical review. Just some lowlights:

-Muslims fly commercial airliners into buildings in New York City. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslim officials block the exit where school girls are trying to escape a burning building because their faces were exposed. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims cut off the heads of three teenaged girls on their way to school in Indonesia. A Christian school. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims murder teachers trying to teach Muslim children in Iraq. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims murder over 80 tourists with car bombs outside cafes and hotels in Egypt. No Muslim outrage.

-A Muslim attacks a missionary children's school in India. Kills six. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims slaughter hundreds of children and teachers in Beslan, Russia. Muslims shoot children in the back. No Muslim outrage.

-Let's go way back. Muslims kidnap and kill athletes at the Munich Summer Olympics. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims fire rocket-propelled grenades into schools full of children in Israel. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims murder more than 50 commuters in attacks on London subways and busses. Over 700 are injured. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims massacre dozens of innocents at a Passover Seder. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims murder innocent vacationers in Bali. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslim newspapers publish anti-Semitic cartoons. No Muslim outrage

-Muslims are involved, on one side or the other, in almost every one of the 125+ shooting wars around the world. No Muslim outrage.

-Muslims beat the charred bodies of Western civilians with their shoes, then hang them from a bridge. No Muslim outrage.

-Newspapers in Denmark and Norway publish cartoons depicting Mohammed. Muslims are outraged.

Dead children. Dead tourists. Dead teachers. Dead doctors and nurses. Death, destruction and mayhem around the world at the hands of Muslims .. no Muslim outrage ...

but publish a cartoon depicting Mohammed with a bomb in his turban and all hell breaks loose.

Come on, is this really about cartoons? They're rampaging and burning flags. They're looking for Europeans to kidnap. They're threatening innkeepers and generally raising holy Muslim hell not because of any outrage over a cartoon.

They're outraged because it is part of the Islamic jihadist culture to be outraged. You don't really need a reason. You just need an excuse.

Wandering around, destroying property, murdering children, firing guns into the air and feigning outrage over the slightest perceived insult is to a jihadist what tailgating is to a Steeler's fan.

I know and understand that these bloodthirsty murderers do not represent the majority of the world's Muslims. When, though, do they become outraged? When do they take to the streets to express their outrage at the radicals who are making their religion the object of worldwide hatred and ridicule?

Islamic writer Salman Rushdie wrote of these silent Muslims in a New York Times article three years ago. "As their ancient, deeply civilized culture of love, art and philosophical reflection is hijacked by paranoiacs, racists, liars, male supremacists, tyrants, fanatics and violence junkies, why are they not screaming?"

Indeed. Why not? >>>
http://www.voy.com/178771/129076.html

Posted by: maz2 at February 3, 2006 05:11 PM

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"I have read and seen in the media that Muslims do not insult other religions or the practitioners of other religions."

Gerry, I don't know what "la-la" world you live in but as a Jew I can, with absolute certainty and beyond even a tiniest shadow of a doubt, tell you that the Muslim and Arab press regularly publishes the most insulting, insidious and offensive cartoons about Jews and Judaism that incite to hate and defame Jews and Judaism in the worst possible ways imaginable. Nothing Hitler came up with in his most vitriolic propaganda even comes close, much less matches the stuff coming out of the Middle East each and every day. Start with MEMRI and the anti-Defamation league websites and go from there. If you have a strong stomach that is.

This is a culture that can dish it out but can't take it.

Posted by: Judith at February 3, 2006 05:18 PM

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When is the line crossed from protest to incitement of violence?

The signs are not incitements?

If not in the UK, then, in Denmark or in the USA or in Canada would these signs and chants be considered against the law?

Posted by: Chairm at February 3, 2006 05:20 PM

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To put it another way: "What's mine is mine, what's thine should soon be mine."

Sharia baby,

Mark
Ottawa

Posted by: Mark Collins at February 3, 2006 05:24 PM

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I'm not religious, but I see a big difference in the way the MSM is willing to cave in to Muslims but constantly puts down Christians. The take-away bottom line is that if you're willing to get violent you'll get what you want...pure hypocrisy and cowardice on our part. And I've said it before but I'll say it again...we start caving in on things like free speech and the next thing will be western women being forced to wear the veil and being stoned to death or gang raped because they didn't. They want to come here then they have to assimilate.

D

Posted by: David Lockwood at February 3, 2006 05:26 PM

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Sheryl: re renting planes and fly them back to the Middle East.

1. Who's volunteer for such a suicide mission
2. It would make 9/11 look like a Islamic greeting card with planes crashing all over the place.
3. Who decides who gets the 'heav-ho'. Some are honestly good citizens. Heck one is a voted in Liberal...

Posted by: tomax at February 3, 2006 05:56 PM

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Maz, who is Batman, Neal Boortz? The author of that diddle?

I see it on:

http://boortz.com/nuze/index.html

Posted by: tomax7 at February 3, 2006 06:01 PM

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"I have read and seen in the media that Muslims do not insult other religions or the practitioners of other religions."

No, they don't insult followers of other religions. They just kill them. How many churches are there is Saudi Arabia? Iran?

There are churches in Pakistan, I know that, because I see on the news, where 1 got fire-bombed a while ago.

Posted by: Curtis at February 3, 2006 06:01 PM

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Wasn't this cartoon originally drawn to suggest that Islam has some violent teachings?

So some muslims are very offened and respond by printing signs and chanting "Kill them!", or "Behead those who insult Islam"?

Posted by: Awake Canadian at February 3, 2006 06:03 PM

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What a pile of...

At the heart of every mob is a handful of rabble rousers looking to further their own agenda. The baser instincts normally shrugged off are fed and inflamed until you have what we have on the news. Dig far enough into any of these mob scenes and you'll find a whack-job extremist or three with an axe to grind.

Cases in point:
- the current kerfuffle over a cartoon
- Bill O'Lielly and his 'war on Christmas", although I was receiving e-mail forwards to that effect for several months previous.
- The Holocaust, the Crusades, Stalin's purges, etc.
- Just about anything that comes out of Pat Robertson's mouth (until it threatens his business deals; Jesusland, indeed)

Extremism isn't limited to religion or political position. For every Muslim 'atrocity' you'll find a similar act by Christians or Jews, and condemnation by members of their respective community for their inhumanity. I'm Christian and have worked side-by-side with Orthodox Jews and Muslims, who worked peacefully with each other.

The fault here lies not in protesters, but in leaders, theirs and ours, and in the media, for pandering to the lowest common denominators of human nature. Al'Jazeera gives play to Israeli attacks on Palestinians while CNN and other western media play up Muslim anger and bombings, probably for the same reasons:

1. It pumps up the ratings. The bigger the car wreck, the more rubber-neckers you'll see crowding it.

2. It enables 'leaders' to say, "look, that's why you need us to protect you".

Nothing unites people better than a big, scary, common enemy (ask Dubya) and the powers that be, in politics and religion know it. Meanwhile, each side is made to feel smug for occupying the 'moral high-ground' while denigrating the 'savages' or 'infidels'.

I'm not anti-Semitic or anti-Muslim; I'm anti-BS. Like it or not, we're outraged over rioting Muslims for the same reasons they're outraged over the cartoon, and are no better than they for it.

Posted by: DFChant at February 3, 2006 06:08 PM

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uh DFChant..."we're outraged over rioting Muslims for the same reasons they're outraged over the cartoon, and are no better than they for it."

Cartoons and threats of being killed are not the same. Talk about a BS statement.

Posted by: tomax at February 3, 2006 06:21 PM

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"Extremism isn't limited to religion or political position. For every Muslim 'atrocity' you'll find a similar act by Christians or Jews,"

You started off right, then skidded into a fire hydrant of wrongness. Atrocities by Christians (or Jews) have not happened in living or modern history. Go back a thousand years, then OK, you have a point. But at some point you have to let bygones be bygones. A society that refuses to do that will be constantly at war.

Ireland is another case in point. When people are willing to leave the past in the past, they can live in the present and plan a future, and live in peace.

Posted by: Curtis at February 3, 2006 06:22 PM

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Hey, let the Muslim horde run riot for a while... the teen-aged shite-heads who firebombed hundreds of cars in France are having the effect that even French politicians are beginning to show some backbone. Didn't they actually come out and announce that deportations are imminent for repeat offenders, and that the published cartoons wouldn't be censored because La Belle France treasured her free speech?

My view is that socialist, liberal countries who let in all these economic migrants, only to have them try to out-breed the native population while living on welfare, are going to face some harsh realities. Immigration will have to be rigidly controlled, where only educated, willing-to-contribute people will be welcomed, the rabble escaping the breeding grounds of the Islamic Dictatorships will not be allowed access.

What will it take for this scenario? Not much more, believe me... a few more militant Muslim marches, some more violence, more secular incitement by idiot imams preaching intolerance and entitlement, more news-footage of hostages being murdered in the name of Allah, etc.

We're going to have to take back our countries, each and every one. Thank god we've managed to dump those brain-dead Lieberals... even Canada has a chance to survive now.

Posted by: Alienated at February 3, 2006 06:38 PM

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Good point Curtis, let's talk about evolving. A religion or religous group that is hell bent on destroying any person or society that does not conform to its own outrageous standards is literaly a ticking time bomb. There is a need to defuse that time bomb, but, it seems that the muslim extremists are willing to do anything, use any excuse, to light that fuse. These groups need to know that Canada does not tolerate this from our citizens and will not allow those into this country who believe they can take a human life in the name of their religion, no matter how many votes they bring.

Posted by: Platty at February 3, 2006 06:59 PM

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I have a solution.

barricade Israel, partition the oil fields from the rest of the Gulf region, pull out all other western military personel, and recommend all westerners to leave.

once everybody leaves then they are free to kill each other, they will be too busy to bother us.

if the police in the UK had rounded up every one of those militants carrying a sign, stripped them of their British citizenship, and had them on a plane back to the middle east, all in the SAME DAY, the rest would learn a hard lesson and maybe learn to accept that this is NOT the middle east and we WON'T pander to them for ANY reason.

I am just ranting, and only half serious about these things...but immeadiate deportation and VERY strict immigration of all people from any country needs to be implimented or we will be hostages in our own country. Learning to speak english or french should have a time-limit too...if you can't speak either language in a specified time.....adios!

If you recall a certain boat-load of chinese peasants that payed a life savings to criminals to get them to the BC coast as few years back......

They were all rounded up and deported back to china in very short order. Now I'm pretty sure those poor folks would have become fine citizens...but rules are rules....

So lets get tough on criminal immigrants....send them packing!

Posted by: bigot, maybe at February 3, 2006 07:54 PM

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I have a solution.

barricade Israel, partition the oil fields from the rest of the Gulf region, pull out all other western military personel, and recommend all westerners to leave.

once everybody leaves then they are free to kill each other, they will be too busy to bother us.

if the police in the UK had rounded up every one of those militants carrying a sign, stripped them of their British citizenship, and had them on a plane back to the middle east, all in the SAME DAY, the rest would learn a hard lesson and maybe learn to accept that this is NOT the middle east and we WON'T pander to them for ANY reason.

I am just ranting, and only half serious about these things...but immeadiate deportation and VERY strict immigration of all people from any country needs to be implimented or we will be hostages in our own country. Learning to speak english or french should have a time-limit too...if you can't speak either language in a specified time.....adios!

If you recall a certain boat-load of chinese peasants that payed a life savings to criminals to get them to the BC coast as few years back......

They were all rounded up and deported back to china in very short order. Now I'm pretty sure those poor folks would have become fine citizens...but rules are rules....

So lets get tough on criminal immigrants....send them packing!

Posted by: bigot, maybe at February 3, 2006 07:55 PM

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"...slay..."
"...demolish..."
"...behead..."
"...butcher..."
"...exterminate..."

So what? This reads like a typical Ann Coulter column.

Posted by: Robert McClelland at February 3, 2006 08:14 PM

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There's one comment on here I can't let pass:"

"Some of these cartoons go over the edge, and are out and out racist, but if we value free speech, we have to defend the right of people to publish them. But does free speech give you the right to be offensive?" Posted by: Curtis at February 3, 2006 03:05 PM

Yes Curtis, it absolutely does.

There is no offense against Christianity, Judaism and Western tradition generally that hasn't been commited in the last 30 years in print, on film, on TV, on Radio, and especially on the internet.

Curtis, there are many people who are mortally offended by this. They hate it. They go to great lengths and expense to avoid it.

For the last 30-40 years we as a culture have said "tough sh*t!" to these people. Appropriately I think. Free speech is free speech. You don't like it, don't listen.

Muslims say they aren't going to sit still for our free speech. They are going to kill us over a friggin' cartoon.

Suddenly after thirty years of pushing the envelope of offensiveness to torque off all those repressed Christians and Jews, the Western artistic community has been brought up short. "Egad! Perhaps we should say sorry and slink back to bashing those Christian pussies, its safer!"

Nuh-uh. Free speech is free speech Curtis. I don't put up with crucifixes in jars of pee only to forbid a cartoon of Mohammed. People are free to be offended if that's what they want to do.

And if world wide Islam wants to start in on a war over it, no problem. We're good at war. Just ask the Germans. And the Japanese, the Afghans, the Russians...

Posted by: The Phantom at February 3, 2006 08:14 PM

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First of all, it isn't 'Muslims' who are being the hotheads over this, anymore than extreme groups from any religion represent that religion as a whole.

The issue here, in my opinion, is that people who believe in a 'religion' to the extent that they do not question, generalize or abstract it but think that allegory, fable and parable are intended to be taken literally are very scary indeed. This proclivity is not restricted to Islam.

One word for this tendency is 'stupidity' and it appears in any and every culture. Another is 'brainwashed'.

It is unfortunate that people who hold these unenlightened beliefs often find themselves in situations they cannot handle, because they do not have the proper tools: skepticism, intuition, logic and education.

This will blow over, just as the witch hunts, the Inquisition, the pogroms and our own shameful treatment of indigenous peoples did, but hopefully in a more civilized manner.

Posted by: Selma at February 3, 2006 08:29 PM

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Free speech is absolutely meant to be offensive. Ideas, particularly new ones, frequently offend people. And that's a good thing. Civil rights marches in the 60s offended many, and it was very appropriate that they did. If we are not free to offend others, are we truly free?

Posted by: LKE at February 3, 2006 08:40 PM

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In all of these comments over free political speech and bigotry one fact has been overlooked, or at least not commented on:

There is a significant latency issue in the timeline between publishing the cartoons and the sudden violence throughout the muslim-controlled parts of the world.

The violence was planned. Coordinated. Executed. Too many westerners are petrified - whether of real violence at the hands of muslims, or of violating their coached sense of fairness.

The cartoons are offensive to muslims who feel Mohammed has been brought to the same level as a Bush, or a Martin - someone to be ridiculed. It is hypocritical of muslims to act on predetermined offense; and it is absolutely to see anyone defending them, or worse - accusing conservatives of any nation of inciting riot - like muslims somehow lack the same amount of humanity as each of us.

IF you feel the ridicule is tantamount to a declaration of war by muslims on your culture and political beliefs, cool - though you're decades late to the realization. Anyway, welcome to the war on terror (the "Long War"), it's been lonely.

Personally, I find it interesting the connection between the countries who suddenly feel threatened by muslim violence over dribbles of ink on paper, and political commitments to assist in the security and rebuilding of Afghanistan and Iraq.

And, I think it'll be fun to see how well NATO/OTAN forces do after so many many years of relying on American soldiers to defend them. Bring the popcorn...

Posted by: AnotherDave at February 3, 2006 08:57 PM

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a few cartoons are far better than con-artist "prophet" Mohammed deserves. Once anyone knows about this guy how could they possibly be a follower?

Posted by: immortalis at February 3, 2006 08:59 PM

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Seriously, does anyone know if the threats in the signs are considered to be incitements to violence? Perhaps incitements to acts of terror?

I realize that free speach needs to be protected even in extreme cases, however, calls for beheading and for another 9-11? These protestors with the signs do not appear to be in the thrall of rhetoric alone.

Posted by: Chairm at February 3, 2006 10:21 PM

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Of course the cartoons are offensive. And there is more to this than the western values regarding free speech. If it were only about free speech and political satire, images of Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar, (or perhaps that strange little monkey, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad) would have served very well. No, this is about (finally) European blowback. European ethnic based states, as Stephen describes them, are finally starting to say: "enough is enough; this is my homeland and we are not going to adapt to you; we are going to challenge your refusal to adapt to the culture of the land into which you immigrated." Good for them; this is one of the most encouraging signs in many years that Europeans are willing to defend their values and culture.

If we were dealing with people who had any serious respect for our traditions and our culture in our lands, I would be concerned about the lack of respect shown in these cartoons. This time, however, I'm going to pick up a six pack of Tuborg and a pound of Danish Brie and I encourage all of you to do the same.

Posted by: felix at February 3, 2006 11:04 PM

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Judith,

If you had bothered to read the rest of my post you might have had a different response. I stated that Muslims have talked of their respect for the religious beliefs of others. This is a matter of record.

I used the example of Christian churches being bombed because that is what I know. In terms of the treatment of Jews by the Muslim (Arab, Indonesian, whatever) media I don't know. I do know that Jews are constantly under attack from these fanatics (figuratively and literally) every day.

I would rather not comment on things of which I have little knowledge because it tends to make me look like an idiot. This is not to say that there are not issues here. I simply said the same thing as you. The use of editorial cartoons in their press I can accept. However, the bombing of churches (or synagogues) and the killing of civilians trying to practice their beliefs is the most repugnant example of intolerance and disrespect to a religion that I can think of. I believe my post stated this in asking Muslims to explain the reasons for their actions in this matter

Cheers

Gerry

Posted by: gerryinmontreal at February 4, 2006 12:59 AM

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By the way, Maz2,

EXCELLENT POST. I wish I was able to state things in that short but effective manner.

Cheers

Gerry

Posted by: gerryinmontreal at February 4, 2006 01:08 AM

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72000 virgins needed here .. good laugh
http://tinyurl.com/82kfg

Posted by: Duke at February 4, 2006 02:41 AM

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Robert McLelland ranted: "...slay..." "...demolish..." "...behead..." "...butcher..."
"...exterminate..." So what? This reads like a typical Ann Coulter column.Posted by: Robert McClelland at February 3, 2006 08:14 PM'

Examples please, Robert. Chapter and verse if you will. I think you're a swarmy liar (in addition to being an anti-semitic wing-nut), and I doubt you'll be able to do it, but go ahead - prove that you're only an anti-semitic wing-nut.

Posted by: at February 4, 2006 04:31 AM

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Previous post was mine.

I'm not a fan of Ann Coulter - haven't read anything of hers for years - but I'm sick and tired of this vacuous piece of flotsam throwing out his made up facts and smears - particularly when he's never apologized for his anti-semitic writings.

Posted by: patrick at February 4, 2006 04:33 AM

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No, We'll remain friends of course, but I will take the opposite tack while our friends and their families are working to help Iraqis and Afghanis to move ahead with getting their democracy built and in place.

True, freedom of speech literally allows us to print the cartoons. We also have to be responsible about using that freedom.

Now is not the best time to give the Jhihadists what they want. They want some excuse to whip up rage to justify misguided young people who chose to become human bombs.

Better to wait for such time when muslems are enjoying their own fairer democratic government and it's freedoms. That would be a time when a few cartoons may be tolerated with humour rather than grabbed as fuel to whip up wild resentment against western dogs. TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at February 4, 2006 04:34 AM

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We must all remember (said with tongue stuck thru cheek) Islam is a religion of peace.
Islam means submission they tell us, submission to allah. This religion will not give us peace until we all submit to allah. they want to convert (subvert) the entire world to their whacko ways. It is more than just an extreme few. Even I. Cooper of CAIR (look it up) said that he would like to see the US a muslim state. Subjagation of the infidel is a tenet of their theology. they won't take no for an answer. Like Jehovahs' witnesses on a perpetual methamphetamine tear. Europe as a whole may now experience what us yanks have (though i wish it not to happen) Then the world will look to the US Canada UK australia etc to bail their asses out and of course the free world will.

Posted by: spike at February 4, 2006 09:03 AM

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I am kind of pissed off about the fact that many fellow progressive bloggers are siding with the Islamists, who are openly asking for the destruction of the west! Enough sleeping with the Islamists, we need to wake up now!

Posted by: Arnab at February 4, 2006 11:00 AM

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"Now is not the best time to give the Jhihadists what they want. They want some excuse to whip up rage to justify misguided young people who chose to become human bombs."

When I first saw the cartoons, I didn't think they were referring to Mohammed the Prophet, but rather Mohammed, a very common name among terrorists (including the DC sniper).

This whole controversy has provoked some good. Governments and the media are more aware that offensive treatment of another's religion can be viewed by those in that religion as a bad thing. It shouldn't take jihadists taking rioting in the streets to cause people to reflect on that fact. The fallout may well benefit people of faith everywhere.

It also provided a stark contrast between how little it takes to provoke the Muslim street, and how tolerant people of (other) faith in muslim nations and elsewhere have been to being slaughtered, tortured, firebombed, raped, and murdered by Muslims. Would that those people of faith who are siding with the Muslims in this instance would save their energy, this one time, and use it to come down hard on the side of their fellow believers when far worse is done to them.

Third, this has served as a wake-up call to, in particular, European nations about the dangers in their midst. Those carrying extreme signs are almost certain to facilitate or perform extreme acts.

At the same time, I won't be posting the cartoons on my blog. I would have, had the campaign been to post the original eight. However, now it's become an excuse to post every kind of anti-Muslim cartoon that comes forward. One would have been information, and a sharing of the risk from a jihadist response. The other is just piling on, lighting the match after the gasoline has been poured.

Posted by: patrick at February 4, 2006 11:26 AM

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Just in case there's any lingering doubt with y'all about Robert McLelland's character, check his blog: http://myblahg.com/?p=568

I was going to go dig that little jem out of the archives, but true to form he's re-posted it.

So if I have to put up with the likes of that, Muslims can pretty well bite down on those cartoons.

Posted by: The Phantom at February 4, 2006 11:51 AM

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FACTS:

Muslim newspapers constantly depict Jews and Christians as pigs and dogs.

Is chopping the heads off four Christian 14-year olds respectful?

It has been calulated that 1 of 3 people in the world wil be Muslim by 2020! By 2050, the Muslims think they'll be the only religion. Why do you think thge Muslims in OUR countries are so silent. They are methodicaly building Islamic schools, churches, sending for their relatives, and multipying!

Oh, and by the way, their religion states that most women and all blacks will go to hell. At any time their clerics can declare that Allah deems an event appropriate - be it killing all women over 40, all people that live in a certain area, whatever. Period. And the followers will not question.

Now is the time for all North Americans, Mexico, USA, and Canada to build a strong united force and stop Muslims from taking over. Once they're in the governments -it's all over. Their religion is their government. WAKE UP! Oh, and liberals if you side with them -then go with them.

Their Allah is NOT our GOD but Satan with his greatest scheme of all.

Posted by: MR at February 4, 2006 07:38 PM

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"Oh, and by the way, their religion states that most women and all blacks will go to hell."

Where on earth did you come up with this crap anyway? One of Mohammed's companions was Black. His nursemaid as a child was Black.The first muezzin was Black. A hell of a lot of Muslims are Black.

You made that up.

You aren't allowed to make things up.

Posted by: Dr.Dawg at February 4, 2006 10:18 PM

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Dr. Dawg, you have earned the Doctor of logics certificate. Bravo!.

Some comment writers suggest I'm in bed with Muslems.

If that were true, I would encourage the cortoons. They are just the fuel Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia want to further inflame and encourage Jihadist fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Enough with the killer comedy! Let's get democracy working first. TG

Posted by: TonyGuitar at February 5, 2006 12:18 AM

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http://www.rzeczpospolita.pl/gazeta/wydanie_060204/swiat/swiat_a_2.html

polish newspaper put only 2 cartoons

Posted by: name at February 5, 2006 04:39 AM

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Howling dervishes all over the world. Barbarians at the gates, Danish products being boycotted in Toronto, Ontario.
I eat Danish cheeses (Esrom, Havarti and Rosenborg Blue. My cheese eating habits will not change.
I have two favourite beers: A good Canadian lager and a dekicious import from Belgium. I am thinking of switching to Carlsberg and Tuborg.

Posted by: Cheesed Off at February 5, 2006 10:17 PM

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It is appropriate and within Islam's belief that the image of the prophet, or Allah, or anyone else not be rendered to avoid the possibility of idolitry.

Muslim's rage, however, at whether or not I, a Christian, do something that their religion forbids, is intolerable. It is their religion and it is for THEM to practice, not for them to force upon me to recognize and adhere to.

I await the day that non-Muslims unite and threaten the destruction of Muslims across the globe because Akbhar - a elderly Muslim living in Brooklyn - took my God's name in vain, and commented, in a coveting way, how his neighbor's wife was extremely attractive.

Posted by: WL at February 9, 2006 02:32 AM

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Although I do not consider myself religious I do consider myself a spiritual person who believes in God. Organized religion I think had its place “once upon a time” when our primitive minds needed guidance. Now it seems that it serves as the wedge that divides us completely, to the point where some believe they are the only ones with claim to this Earth. All others must believe as they or be exterminated, a common theme in history; ancient history as well as modern with the likes of Hitler and Stalin. The greatest insult to Islam is the insult it brings to itself with such behavior. “Butcher”, “Exterminate”, Osama Bin Ladin.

Keep up the good works. There is only one outcome I see from all that is going on in the Moslem world. It will end up as them against the world. We are all infidels remember, Christen, Buddhist, Jew, Agnostic or Communist. If they get there way we will all be living in the Stone Age clubbing our women and dragging them back to the cave. I don’t think so…………………..Let Freedom Ring!

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Posted by: maspaul at February 10, 2006 05:45 PM

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Nice to here that we have people in our comunity have a sence to object this or even comment on it.Time is coming when these muslim are going to rule west.So we should get together and kick these bastard out of West.Ever since they start coming to west we have problem of different kind.Time is asking us to get together and get git of these Bastard.We are giving them change to live here where as they are trying to change our rights.

Posted by: H S John at February 25, 2006 05:24 PM

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