Irwin Cotler's wife: Dump the Liberal Party
Ariela Cotler, the wife of former Liberal Justice Minister Irwin Cotler, has very publicly denounced the Liberal Party. This on the heels of the resignation of Susan Kadis from the Michael Ignatieff campaign. This all points to the Liberal Party is suffering from deep divisions over the harsh criticism aimed at Israel by most of the senior leadership.
Updated: More on Ariela's politics and influence. Also some thoughts on Liberal MP Susan Kadis.
Two very public renunciations of the Liberal Party from noteworthy Jewish Liberals in the span of three days.
First, this letter published in the National Post on Friday, October 13, 2006 (page A17):
I was a Liberal ... until yesterday
Re: Israeli Envoy, Rae Attack Ignatieff's Remarks, Oct. 12.
I have been an active, involved and contributing member of the Liberal party until yesterday, when I decided to give up my membership because of the statements from Michael Ignatieff, given in French to a Quebec radio station.
I was hoping that with his background as a professor of human rights, Mr. Ignatieff would be able to make the distinction between the attackers and the attacked. I would remind Mr. Ignatieff that it was a Liberal government that placed Hezbollah on the international terrorist organizations list.
I feel it was not political savvy and wisdom that Mr. Ignatieff lacked in his address in Quebec. Rather, it was a lack of moral integrity, sacrificing the truth for personal political gains in the upcoming leadership election for the party.
I, and many of my friends, will no longer be there for that event.
Ariela Cotler, Montreal.
Ariela Cotler is the wife of Irwin Cotler, Liberal MP for Mount Royal and formerly the Justice Minister in Paul Martin's government. That Mrs Cotler is abandoning the Liberal Party altogether rather than publicly declare for another candidate (such as Bob Rae, whom Irwin Cotler is expected to support) suggests that Prime Stephen Harper was right:
Prime Minister Stephen Harper painted the slate of Liberal leadership candidates as anti-Israel yesterday following remarks from frontrunner Michael Ignatieff that Israel committed a war crime last July.
"I think this is consistent with the anti-Israeli position that has been taken by virtually all of the candidates for the Liberal leadership," Harper said. "I don't think it's helpful or useful."
It's one for thing for the Conservatives to suggest that the Liberals are top-heavy with people who are almost reflexively critical of Israel, but when a prominent Liberal says the same thing a day later, you have to wonder just how serious the problem really is. Apparently, Mrs Cotler can't find a home inside the Liberal Party. As a supporter of Israel, she no longer feels welcome. Irwin Cotler, as a sitting MP and a prominent senior Liberal, is constrained from being too critical of the Liberal Party, and he did not sign his name to his wife's letter. Nevertheless, her letter will be associated with Irwin Cotler, and I can't help but think that she is speaking, and acting, on behalf of both of them.
Update: Actually, I know this to be true. Irwin and Ariela are a "two-for-one" political team. Something as significant as dumping the Liberal Party is going to be done with Irwin Cotler's full knowledge and support:
[Irwin] Cotler said his is a "two-for-one candidacy" -- he and his wife, Ariela. Having worked in the office of Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, Ariela is no stranger to politics.
Indeed, she is no stranger. And she is heavily involved in the Jewish community, as past president of Hillel Montreal:
Hillel Montreal is a Jewish student organization that represents the needs of the diverse Jewish student population in Montreal. Hillel Montreal is responsible and committed to creating a vibrant, innovative and exciting campus life for Jewish CEGEP and university students. Hillel Montreal aims to create an atmosphere of openness where all students feel welcome and comfortable to actively participate in programming or attend events.
When Mrs Cotler says "many of her friends" won't be supporting the Liberal Party or participating in the leadership campaign, she could be talking about a lot of people. She has lots of friends -- friends in Montreal, across Canada, and in Israel -- all of whom listen to her opinion with a great deal of respect.
Mrs Cotler has sent a powerful message to the Liberal Party, and has cast a light on the divisions that are appearing inside the party. She has affirmed what Prime Minister Stephen Harper has said about the Liberal Party and its willingness to support Hezbollah and others over Israel. It may be a very long time before the damage that Canada's left has inflicted upon itself with its harsh criticism of Israel and its coddling of terrorists can be repaired, if that is even possible.
But until they fix it, the Liberal Party will continue to shed the final vestiges of Jewish support, including, presumably, support at the highest level of the party from people like the Cotlers.
This on the heels of the resignation of Liberal MP Susan Kadis, who is also Jewish, from her position as Toronto campaign chair for the Michael Ignatieff campaign, and you see where this is going. The ones who don't leave the Liberal Party on their own will be urged to leave by the likes of Cotler and Kadis.
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Comments
Judenrat ?!
Posted by: Observer at October 13, 2006 10:24 AM
Corrected a typo in the date. October 13, not 16. Oops.
Posted by: Steve Janke at October 13, 2006 10:30 AM
Isn't Bob Rae's wife Jewish? Didn't he leave the NDP because of the NDP's anti-semetism? If so, why doesn't she just support him? (Unless she doesn't like his other policies, and abysmal track record)
Posted by: Jonny_eh at October 13, 2006 10:31 AM
Hell...steal all you want from the taxpayer, that's OK for this bitch, she sucks a govt willy for her three squares and a cot...but criticize a murdering Jew? hey, THAT'S WAY OUTTA LINE for her.
Posted by: Raymond Hietapakka at October 13, 2006 10:39 AM
Hell...steal all you want from the taxpayer, that's OK for this bitch, she sucks a govt willy for her three squares and a cot...but criticize a murdering Jew? hey, THAT'S WAY OUTTA LINE for her.
It's your blog, Steve, but I would delete this comment from 'Raymond' were I you. It is so full of unpleasantness that one would be hard put to know where to begin to critique it.
Oh well evidently they don't ONLY come out at night any longer.
Posted by: dougf at October 13, 2006 10:47 AM
Don't screw with jewish special interests. They will make your life hell.
Posted by: at October 13, 2006 11:26 AM
The Liberals are trying to hide the fact that their party is splitting over this issue. What Harper said is true. That is why Ariela Cotler & Susan Kadis both quit in the last two days. And why Heather Wiesman & Izzy Asper bailed earlier. Iggy, Louise Arbour and their ilk have taken over the Liberal party, and Harper's comments are meant to prevent the Liberals from papering over this split.
Posted by: at October 13, 2006 11:34 AM
Have My Blagh and his SS buddies crawled out of the sewer?
Hey, Himmlers; look under your keyboards/beds/white hoods. The Joos are there; watching youse. ...-
Posted by: maz2 at October 13, 2006 11:39 AM
Greetings: This firestorm that was unleashed with Mr. Ignatieff's comments is unfolding in an interesting way. I attended a lecture by David Frum last night and one of the questions put to him was his responsibility in proclaiming the Axis of Evil and did he regret his part in it. His response was very enlightening and pertinent to what is occurring regarding support of Isreal.
Frum pointed out that, with children, if something is not put into words then it does not exist. This does not hold true with adults. Even though certain issues are not discussed all reasonable adults know they exist. By putting them into words one allows a forum for discussion. Mr. Frum indicated that everyone already knew that Iraq, North Korea and Iran were a powder keg even if no one was elucidating it.
The same holds true for the Liberal Party's position on Israel. All Canadians knew that the Liberal Party was only very weakly responsive to Isreal last summer. Some even subtly condemed it. To cry foul now when Mr. Harper put it into words is expected. I believe that most Liberal leadership candidates treat Canadians as children. If they don't talk about it then we won't know it exists.
As for Mr. harper making a misstep in stating it yesterday I think that is highly unlikely. I am sure that he has heard Mr. Frum speak and thought he would put the cat among the pigeons. It was worth it just to watch Mr. Rae go ballistic and hear Jane Tabour discribe his "drive by smear" and fall all over him in sympathy. Enough said. Sandra
Posted by: sandra at October 13, 2006 11:42 AM
Susan Kadis is a fairly "blue" Liberal in terms of law and order issues as well. Might she be looking across the aisle and wondering if she might be more comfortable over there? Stephen Harper is no fool -- when he stuck the knife into the Liberals on the Israel issue yesterday, people like Susan Kadis and the riding she represents were front and centre in his thinking.
Posted by: at October 13, 2006 11:43 AM
Was that Ernst Zundel or Egghead that was just on TV implying that Harper is Anti-Canadian for attacking liberal Anti-semitism?
Wow... Liberals are in full meltdown mode.
Posted by: Levesque at October 13, 2006 11:55 AM
Mr. Cotler was also caught between a rock and a hard place after the pro-Hezbollah rally in Montreal where Liberals were in attendance. He was not happy about people like MP Coderre being at a rally where Hezbollah flags were waving and the flag of Israel was shown with blood. His comments appeared in the MSM:
Cotler gave credit to Harper for “coming out early and clearly” in support of Israel’s right to security, “a cornerstone of Canadian foreign policy and a principle endorsed by successive governments.” He admitted the Liberals, who have 11 candidates vying for its leadership, have not been able to enunciate that principle as forthrightly, but hopes the party will be able to do so when a leader is elected in December.
Mr. Cotler's remarks fairly back up what PM Harper was commenting on.
Posted by: Conrad at October 13, 2006 11:56 AM
DougF - I think we can safely dismiss Raymond's 'arguement'. I really think he's more interested in showing us his 'potty mouth' than arguing a point.
All the same, I don't read too much into all this story. Mrs. Cotler doesn’t do this as a result of some uncommon level of moral integrity among her fellow Liberals. Nor do i think it comes from an enlighted understanding of the rudimentary truths regarding who did what in Lebanon. She does this because as a Jew, the whole matter is more than an academic exercise in indoctrination. Being a Jew precludes her (on this matter at least) from being told what to think like a good little Liberal.
What we need is a Liberal who is NOT a Jew to denounce the pervasive, illogical Liberal attitude regarding Israel.
I'm not holding my breath.
http://gargoylerants.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Gargoyle at October 13, 2006 11:58 AM
Check out Proud to be Canadian blog..lots on this topic.
http://www.proudtobecanadian.ca/index/weblog/liberal_irwin_cotlers_wife_quits_party/
Posted by: On-Tory-O at October 13, 2006 12:27 PM
Observer, what about a Jewish council? What has that got to do with anything?
Of course, if you're just trying to throw around coarse, Hitlerian insults, I would suggest that you at least learn enough German to say what you mean.
Posted by: Walrus at October 13, 2006 12:44 PM
First of all Stephen Harper is not Paul Martin or Iggy. He knows exactly what he is saying at all times. He knows publicly and privately what the Liberals are saying among themselves and friends. When the question was asked he merely stated what he believes to be true. If we think back to the conflict the Liberals were all over the map but it was clear they felt Israel's response was an overreaction to the provocation by Hezbollah. However, it worried enough Liberals such as the Riesman family which caused them to leave the party. This says Jewish people within the Liberal party were no longer comfortable. Iggy's comments brought the whole thing to light again. He was appealing to the Muslim vote in Quebec, pure and simple, and thought because it was in Quebec and in French he could get away with it. How naive of him. TDH Strategies, a Liberal blog, has the definition of a war crime today. He does not agree that Israel committed a war crime and he supports Ignatieff. If any right thinking person reads it Israel did not committ a war crime in Qana but Hezbollah did when firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel on civilian targets. If Bob Rae is so outraged why did he do the dance of the seven veils in trying to spin his way into not taking a position? He should have been outraged with what he heard coming from the Liberal Associate Foreign Critic..Borys Wryzenski(?). However, silence from Mr. Rae. Shame on him. Now I just finished watching Iggy on TV. He is still talking about war crimes and sighting Louise Arbour as another confirmation of his "new" position. However, he neglected to mention Ms. Arbour retracted her statement. Iggy will still win the leadership race because the choice is limited and the rest carry more baggage. However, I look forward to this professorial, intellectual snob continuing to put each foot in his mouth together with the occasional elbow. It is fun to watch Liberals squirm. That was Mr. Harper's intent yesterday and he achieved it in spades.
Posted by: hollinm at October 13, 2006 01:11 PM
Harper's comments were true enough and the resignations of Jews gives him ample credibility in public perception. The political motivation for Harper's comment, however, I would wager is to test the political instincts of Ignatieff to see how he reacts.
Posted by: murray at October 13, 2006 01:38 PM
We seem to be getting another bitter taste of Iggy's friends medicine. The Allah Sociopath Society has managed to kill another NATO soldier in a suicide attack. Of course this wasn't strictly a martyrdom operation, as a crowd of Muslim bystanders were also shredded like Ariela Cotler's Liberal membership card.
Posted by: neo at October 13, 2006 01:44 PM
I live in Ms. Kadis' riding. She is a nice lady when she was a muni alderperson she helped get a nice park in my neighborhod.
But as an MP she has been absolutely invisible. I didnt hear her saying anything critical of Paul Martin, or of Adscam. She HAD to do this, as the riding is heavily jewish.
For example, Tino Molineri almost won the riding provincially for the CPC under Ernie Eves based on funding of religous schools.
Ms. Kadis had to do what she did or she would be thrown out. If Ignatieff wins the leadership she is going to have a tough decision to make because she will have a VERY tough if not impossible campaign to hold that seat and she would only hold it based on her strong personal connections within the riding.
I feel for her, nice person, but she has a real difficult fight ahead under Ignatieff OR Dion and Rae...that will just depend on whether people, regardless of religous affiliation can look past his time as Premier.
Posted by: Stephen at October 13, 2006 01:58 PM
1) Sorry about the couple of spelling errors above, s/b Tina not Tino and OPC not CPC
2) If Iggy was making those statements to appeal to the large Lebanese vote in Quebec he is just an idiot like Paul Martin, captured by his advisors, is Scotty Reid advising him? As others have said, You can always tell a Harvard man, you just can't tell him much....
Posted by: Stephen at October 13, 2006 02:13 PM
Iggy popped another boomer on his reach for the top of the heap. No doubt he'll be out on damage control to explain himself and blame Harper.
He is making far too many blunders, gotta wonder where he parked his smarts when he decided to enter politics and run for leadership, with no political experience, and for a party that needs repairs.
He's swinging and swaying , doing the Liberal dance,showing no sign of consistency or ability to have firm opinions or make decisions as to where he stands on issues. He's another Drone talker like Dryden, a real snooze inducer.
Posted by: Biddy at October 13, 2006 02:16 PM
Iggy would say that the Canadiens are his favorite hockey team until his advisors reminded him that he was in Calgary. Then he would say that the Oilers are his team of choice...
Posted by: at October 13, 2006 02:48 PM
OT (yes I'm evil):
. . .
Cindy Sheehan, who announced at a recent book signing in Texas that she was a finalist for [the Nobel Peace Prize].
How Cindy came to this conclusion is a mystery, as the committee that selects the winner of the prize had not revealed the list of nominees, much less the finalists.
. . .
In between paid speaking engagements, Sheehan is hawking her book 'Peace Mom', which stands at No. 207,064 in sales among all titles listed on Amazon.com
http://www.rightbias.[extension not allowed]/Commentary_3.aspx
Posted by: Jay at October 13, 2006 03:44 PM
To understand how Liberals truly feel one only needs to look at their UN voting record on resolutions regarding Israel. I've been told that in the last 50 or so votes (when the Liberals ruled the world) they voted for Israel exactly ZERO times, all the other votes were negative or Canada abstained. Does anyone doubt that the anti-Israel proclamation at the last Francophonie summit would have passed without issue if Mr. Martin were still PM?
It's nice to finally have a PM with integrity.
Posted by: Mark at October 13, 2006 04:59 PM
My Resignation
As President of the Thornhill Young Liberals and as a delegate from the riding of Thornhill, I stand by Susan Kadis MP in her decision to resign as GTA Co-Chair of the Michael Ignatieff Campaign.
I do believe Michael to be a strong leader but unfortunately at this time, I cannot reconcile his recent statements characterizing Israel's action in response to the kidnapping of its soldiers as a "war crime". As a matter of conscience, I, like Susan, am resigning as Director of Strategy and Operations for Ontario.
http://michelleoliel.blogspot.com/2006/10/my-resignation.html
Iggy Who? Now.... what about Denis Coderre, Hezbollah supporter, Iggy's co-chair? ...-
Posted by: maz2 at October 13, 2006 05:23 PM
As far as I am concerned all these people are playing into the hands of S. Harper, my grandfather family was from France, if they bombed 29 kids in a house, which is considered to be a Crime. I would not shout to the world that I am no longer a member of the party that made that statement. If its true - live with it.
Second of all my other grandfather came from England, if England had bombed a house and killed 29 children, and it was a Crime. I would hide my face in a corner. I am a Canadian and care about Canadian issues, I have no thoughts one way or another on the recent war in Lebanon, and no comment, these people who pretend to be offended and fake Canadians. As for Harper you can have him. And so can Cotler.
Posted by: Jacque at October 13, 2006 06:03 PM
Jacque, if I purposely hid weapons in and around a house with "29 children" in it and then fired rockets into peaceful civilian neighbourhoods from that position, THAT would be a war crime.
So, on one hand, you have actual war criminals getting a free ride from the Liberal leadership, while the responding army gets denounced for attacking a military target. Huh. I'm not calling you or anyone else stupid... but that's one heck of a spin you folks are putting on this.
And thanks for not taking Stephen Harper -- the rest of Canada says thanks, as we need him right now.
Posted by: Yukon Gold at October 13, 2006 06:32 PM
I think Ignatieff was merely doing what Liberals do so well, say different things in the two official languages and keep their fingers crossed that no one notices.
Liberals want power. Ignatieff wants power. He is a good liberal. He reckons he can get more muslim votes than jewish votes in Montreal.
He's pissed off that he was caught out.
And he's milking the TV opportunities to "explain himself" for all they are worth.
Apart from Bob Rae, who seems genuinely upset, this is just the liberals trying to make something out of nothing. And they will continue to play the sectarian politics they have practiced since Trudeau.
Posted by: Wimpy Canadian at October 13, 2006 07:08 PM
The real story that is unspoken is not Liberal anti-semitism it is Israeli war crimes. The fact that Hezbollah has also committed war crimes does not logically mean that Israel has not, it simply means that they both have. The second unspoken story is that to state the obvious--that Israel is a rogue state that engages in terrorism and commits war crimes--will inspire a vicious backlash and attacks
Posted by: bobby gee at October 13, 2006 08:03 PM
Exactly what "war crimes" has Israel committed?
Posted by: Jay at October 13, 2006 08:14 PM
Hey there are more muslims than jews,why not exploit that, that is the Liberal way.
Power is what they wont. They will sell their grand mothers in to prostitution if that is what it takes to gain power.
Iggie and Bob the boop are off the shelf socialist soon to be on sale at Costco for a dime a dozen.
Posted by: crocus at October 13, 2006 08:41 PM
Having trouble posting (due to my browser) but has anyone come to this story via Bourque? If so, who the heck is that over Cotler's shoulder -- Tom Green? Bizarre.
Posted by: Shawn Goldwater at October 13, 2006 10:37 PM
The issue of Ariela Colter and the other former Jewish members of the Liberal Party is very simple..THE TRUTH HURTS. There is no doubt that Hezbollah committed war crimes. There is also very strong evidence from a number of respected international monitoring agencies that Isreal committed war crimes. The issue is not about being anti-Isreal but about viewing what happened in Lebanon in its entirety. The stand that Harper and his suppoters are taking is "If you kill my brother then it is okay for me to kill your brother." We all know that the second killing would be as wrong as the first and so too is Isreal's killing of innocent civilians. The indiscriminate nature of Isreal's bombing was evident when they bombed the UN out post killing a Canadian soldier. This after several messages were sent by the UN observers to the Isreali army and the fact that there were no Hezbollah in the area. The use of cluster bombs in civilian areas is also considered a war crime and there is overwhelming evidence that the Isrealis used cluster bombs. So indeed both Hezbollah the instigator and Isreal the retaliator both committed war crimes. Saying this does not make anyone anti-Isreal it is just pointing out the facts.
Posted by: Don at October 13, 2006 10:59 PM
Nonsense. Read the Geneva Convention and learn. Hezbollah WERE stationed around the UN outpost, as attested to by a Canadian soldier (I believe a major). Cluster bombs? Absolutely no evidence. And your "respected" international monitoring agencies are anti-Israel and anti-west, pure and simple. They can't be believed any more than green helmet guy or michael moore.
Posted by: Jay at October 13, 2006 11:08 PM
I wonder if Iggy has erred in taking the Jewish vote for granted? It will be very interesting to see what happens on the island, the Montreal suburbs and in some of the ridings in Toronto next election. What used to be red mailbox ridings could become incredibly close.
I would have to think that the cash strapped Libs are going to miss some donations as well as a whole lot of experience and savvy in boardrooms as well.
Posted by: dadey at October 14, 2006 12:20 AM
Jacques
Here is the problem. There is no evidence that the Israelis bombed a house with 29 children in it. In fact most of the evidence suggests that this is just another "atrocity" fabricated by the Arabs. I for one would not hide my face in the corner because a known liar accused me of something I did not do.
It is pretty clear that Iggy is trying to tap into the anti-Israel vote in Quebec; it is a little lame that he gets offended when someone calls him on it.
Posted by: phil at October 14, 2006 12:44 AM
Jay writes: Cluster bombs? Absolutely no evidence.
Actually, there's some evidence, if you're willing to look.
Don and Bobby Gee are correct--condemning these IDF tactics is not equivalent to being "anti-Israel," nor does it absolve Hezbollah of its war crimes. It's an unfortunate consequence of blind partisanship that these simple distinctions become lost amidst the rhetoric.
Posted by: A at October 14, 2006 12:47 AM
The 08/26/06 edition of The Economist has an interesting article about the "enduring illusion" of air power as being sufficient for achieving victory in modern warfare. In abstract form:
[IDF chief of staff] Lieut-General [Dan] Halutz, an air-force man, is said to have persuaded Israel's militarily inexperienced prime minister, Ehud Olmert, that the task of destroying Hizbullah in Lebanon was the perfect job for aircraft. It did not quite work out that way. Yet the seductive idea that air power can provide swift victory with light casualties has been around almost as long as the aeroplane itself...The belief that a few bombs could spare all the bloody butcher's bill of infantry fighting proved especially appealing to many of the military men--and politicians--who had witnessed the horrors of the trenches in the first world war...The possibility that air power would make a ground invasion of France unnecessary tantalised some American politicians right up to the Normandy landings...Similarly, 20 years on...[as] America's ground forces in Vietnam found themselves increasingly impotent against an elusive and resourceful foe, the military commanders proposed endless variations on the same bombing strategy that had so far failed...
The coming of age of precision guidance did sharply change conventional warfare involving conventional armies, as the two Gulf wars...[and] NATO's air campaign against Serbia showed...But when it comes to rooting out guerrillas and insurgents, wishful thinking still tends to outweigh technological capabilities. A study of the use of air power in small wars over the past century by James Corum and Wray Johnson, two former professors at the American Air Force's School of Advanced Airpower Studies, concluded that insurgents and terrorists "rarely present lucrative targets for aerial attack"...Since terrorists and guerrillas blend into the civilian population, fight in small units and rely on surprise and mobility, accurate and timely intelligence is crucial, and bad intelligence always results in civilian casualties, sometimes lots of them. Moreover, dropping a bomb in an urban area, even when the intelligence is correct, and even when the bomb is precision-guided, is likely to kill innocent neighbours...
In Lebanon the Israeli air force found itself in the worst of both worlds, killing civilians without achieving military objectives...[In] the end, Israel found that even in a war that hinged on psychology and "consciousness", air power had inherent limitations. In the 48 hours before the ceasefire went into effect, Israel sent a surge of ground troops into southern Lebanon to engage in the "anachronistic" pursuit of seizing territory--precisely in order to create the conscious perception of tangible military victory that air power alone had failed to deliver. The truly smart bomb remains as elusive as the silver bullet.
Posted by: A at October 14, 2006 01:01 AM
Don opined: "The stand that Harper and his suppoters are taking is "If you kill my brother then it is okay for me to kill your brother." We all know that the second killing would be as wrong as the first and so too is Isreal's killing of innocent civilians."
Don is clearly twisting the truth here. In war, civilians are caught in war zones, both as partisans and as local residents. In Lebanon, civilians were actual combatants, too. The Lebanese were attacking Israel with rocket launchers built into their homes, shops, hospitals, farms, and even adjacent to UN observation posts. Israel is perfectly entitled to blast the shit out any of the attackers wedged into the civilian infrastucture. That's the rules of war since time immemorial. Israel was always polite enough to warn people in advance that an attack was coming. In the end, very few honest civilians were hammered.
Don may have been duped by the Lebanese PR machine that popped up after every hit with a van-load of well-dressed dead bodies, which they would cart about the struck areas. In many instances, the same dead bodies would be carted off to the next town for another set of photo ops. In so many photos of wreckage, the same Lebanese PR flacks (the "green helmet" guys) are shown propping up or carrying their selection of corpses or props. The PR flackery was so blatant and clumsy that it was almost comical.
In my opinion, Israel is right to be ticked, and no apologies are due to any genuine corpses. The "local civilians" (and their rockets) totally deserve what they got - and more.
Posted by: José Joseph at October 14, 2006 01:03 AM
I defy anyone to show conclusive evidence that Isreal committed any 'war crimes' as defined by the Geneva conventions. Isreal reacted to an attack and engaged the Hezzies where they were hiding. If the Lebanese people are too ignorant to get out of the battle theatre then they are most likely to end up as pink mist. I fail to see how that is Isreal's problem.
Besides, given the number of Hezzie collaborators living in Southern Lebanon I really doubt there were many 'civilians', again defined by the Geneva conventions, residing there.
Posted by: missing link at October 14, 2006 03:36 AM
Hey folks, you can't criticize Israel, no matter what they do. Menachim Begin was a murdering terrorist but no one talks about that particularly Ms. Cotler.
Posted by: Bill Miller at October 14, 2006 06:53 AM
Steve, while she has not quit the party, and merely the campaign, are you aware that blogger Michelle Oliel has resigned her post (from Ignatieff's campaign)?
michelleoliel.blogspot.com
Posted by: Jason Bo Green at October 14, 2006 07:54 AM
Missing Link--yes--apparently israel 'warned' the lebanese people that they were going to be bombing a specific area--AFTER they bombed the roads out of the area--then they bombed the vehicles loaded with innocent Lebanese civilians. Lebanese children are still being killed by unexploded cluster bombs and landmines left by israel.
As for Lebanon atacking israel first--the initial reports re the 'kidnapping' of two israeli soldiers stated that the two were 'kidnapped' on Lebanese soil--the story was almost immediately changed to read that they had been 'kidnapped' on israeli soil.
Posted by: George at October 14, 2006 07:59 AM
Israel gets more than it's share of criticism, where have you people been? They're under constant threat, surrounded by people who want them driven into the sea, out of existence.
When have Israelis suicide bombed or blew up buses or public places killing innocent civilians? When have they martyred their children, strapping bombs to them to kill people, and be "proud" to do it.
It's difficult to fight an enemy who do not abide any rules of conflict and use human shields, hiding out among the women and children for most
sympathy. It's a sad scene and routine for israel's enemies to bring forth for the cameras the bodies of dead children.
The Democratic State of Israel has done a lot of good in that part of the World,let's not get carried away with the negatives. It's terrorism that's the scourge of the 21st century, that's what we all should be fighting, en masse , not a State defending itself from it.
Posted by: Biddy at October 14, 2006 08:17 AM
As I munched my toast yesterday while reading the Cotler letter to The National Post, I noted the signature and idly wondered if she was related to the former Justice Minister. It's a Germanic sounding name but not a common one - unlike, say, Martin - which in English is ten-a-penny.
Later, I heard on the radio two fascinating things, First, Iggy was now saying that both sides had committed war crimes. Fatwah comming there. Second, the Cotler was Irwin's wife! At first I thought that her comment would make for some interesting pillow talk. In light of Steve's comments, I guess that's not true.
The 800-pound gorilla that seems to be being ignored is anti-semitism in la belle province.
Posted by: Tom in Mississauga at October 14, 2006 08:51 AM
George figures that: "apparently israel 'warned' the lebanese people that they were going to be bombing a specific area--AFTER they bombed the roads out of the area--then they bombed the vehicles loaded with innocent Lebanese civilians."
George, you must ask youself how the Lebanese PR machine was able to travel from town to town with their van full of camera-ready corpses and phony war-damage props. How could they be there with all the world's media types and photogs and caterers and Hezbo handlers if the roads were bombed? As far as innocent civilans goes, were there any? Anyone not on the boat to Canada was almost certainly a Hezbo partisan, enabler, caterer, missile-loader,banker, missile-trucker, or technician. "Innocent civilians"? You've got to be joking!
Posted by: José Joseph at October 14, 2006 01:19 PM
Apparently George has not seen the extensive work put into proving the propaganda out of Lebanon was exactly that - all propaganda.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/08/corruption-of-media.html
Takes a while to digest all of this, but well worth reading.
Posted by: Don't Want To at October 14, 2006 02:24 PM
Again George, where is the evidence?
And your emotions don't count....
Posted by: missing link at October 14, 2006 03:48 PM
Again George. Besides your emotions on the issue, where is the evidence?
The facts of who started the conflict are well documented so I will not nother going over that again.
As with everything in life, when you go around poking lions with a stick you better be prepared for the cause and effect consequences. In other words the civilians embraced the Hezzies and paid the price for that support.
You can't save people who do not want to be saved.
Posted by: missing link at October 14, 2006 03:54 PM
Jose Joseph: As far as innocent civilans goes, were there any? Anyone not on the boat to Canada was almost certainly a Hezbo partisan, enabler, caterer, missile-loader,banker, missile-trucker, or technician.
Missing Link: You can't save people who do not want to be saved.
This flawed logic implies that forewarning alone is sufficient to motivate the mass evacuation of innocents. Anyone remaining must therefore want to be there. What, then, of those New Orleans residents who became victims of Hurricane Katrina? Were they all fools or fatalists? Does the fact of their dying mean their deaths were deserved? Or did a lack of means play at least some role in their inability to flee the city?
Likewise, Lebanese-Canadians were granted safe passage by virtue of their dual citizenship (after the initial bombs had fallen, let's not forget). But where do you suggest Lebanese nationals extricate themselves to? How might they get there?
Posted by: A at October 14, 2006 05:34 PM
Regarding the clueless nesss of some people in disaster areas, A takes a wild stab at the underlying reasons: "Or did a lack of means play at least some role in their inability to flee the city?
I love these photos of HUNDREDS of Canadian-made school buses sitting in New Orleans during the flood because (a) half the police force was frightened and ran away, and (b) because Mayor Ray Nagin didn't know how to organize some bus drivers.
My two favourite New Orleans bus photos are at:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikinews/en/thumb/b/b2/Bus_yard-rotate.jpg/180px-Bus_yard-rotate.jpg
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Image:Bus1b-norta.jpg
Canada's Magna Intl built a whole town for Katrina people, opened the December after Katrina. Some residents complained that it didn't have a football field. Half the men who moved in have criminal records. Photo of Magna's Katrina-town is here:
http://www.magna.com/magna/en/_images/canadaville_featurephoto1.jpg
It's way past time for us to stop getting so darned weepy about other people when they are so retarded about life that they can't get their shit in gear. In the case of New Orleans, there was enough warning, enough buses sitting in the parking lots, and enough emergency housing, that nobody should have been left behind. In the case of Lebanon, it's likely that the folks there had a choice: take the family camping for a month or stay in the south making a small fortune in Hezbo-bucks by working as rocket launch assistants. That the latter choice was seemed harmless enough is no reason for us to get all teary when the rocketeers got whacked by the Israelis.
It seems like a lot of us here are having trouble differentiating between right and wrong in the world around us. Terrorist enablers, criminals, slackers, boon-dogglers, and bums need to be encouraged to look after their families. When they get into trouble, they ought not to point their fingers at us. We've given them the tools to stay out of trouble, and our job now is to steadfastly point these losers to the light, not to attack our own hard-working and honourable leaders.
Some people just won't be saved, no matter what we do for them.
Posted by: at October 14, 2006 09:11 PM
Regarding the clueless nesss of some people in disaster areas, A takes a wild stab at the underlying reasons: "Or did a lack of means play at least some role in their inability to flee the city?
I love these photos of HUNDREDS of Canadian-made school buses sitting in New Orleans during the flood because (a) half the police force was frightened and ran away, and (b) because Mayor Ray Nagin didn't know how to organize some bus drivers.
My two favourite New Orleans bus photos are at:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikinews/en/thumb/b/b2/Bus_yard-rotate.jpg/180px-Bus_yard-rotate.jpg
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Image:Bus1b-norta.jpg
Canada's Magna Intl built a whole town for Katrina people, opened the December after Katrina. Some residents complained that it didn't have a football field. Half the men who moved in have criminal records. Photo of Magna's Katrina-town is here:
http://www.magna.com/magna/en/_images/canadaville_featurephoto1.jpg
It's way past time for us to stop getting so darned weepy about other people when they are so retarded about life that they can't get their shit in gear. In the case of New Orleans, there was enough warning, enough buses sitting in the parking lots, and enough emergency housing, that nobody should have been left behind. In the case of Lebanon, it's likely that the folks there had a choice: take the family camping for a month or stay in the south making a small fortune in Hezbo-bucks by working as rocket launch assistants. That the latter choice was seemed harmless enough is no reason for us to get all teary when the rocketeers got whacked by the Israelis.
It seems like a lot of us here are having trouble differentiating between right and wrong in the world around us. Terrorist enablers, criminals, slackers, boon-dogglers, and bums need to be encouraged to look after their families. When they get into trouble, they ought not to point their fingers at us. We've given them the tools to stay out of trouble, and our job now is to steadfastly point these losers to the light, not to attack our own hard-working and honourable leaders.
Some people just won't be saved, no matter what we do for them.
Posted by: José Joseph at October 14, 2006 09:12 PM
The idea of a war is to apply lethal force. Israel was restrained if one considers what they could have done if they had unleashed the full potential of their forces.
I am sure they are wishing that they had mopped up that miserable bunch once and for all. Theres no doubt it will need to be done at some point. This silly arguement about war crimes doesnt solve anything. As i read somewhere, everyone is with Israel as long as they dont use their armed forces to defend themselves
Posted by: Lee at October 14, 2006 09:47 PM
George
The flaw in your argument is the fact that all the people who wanted in had no trouble traveling on those roads. The "Green Helmet Man" and his van full of bodies had no trouble making the trip, nor did any of the Hezbollah press working part time for Reuters. The Israelis gave a warning that no one else in the world would give (ok maybe the Americans would) to terrorists who were trying to murder there civilians. There were all manner of crimes committed in Lebanon but they were not committed by Israelis.
Posted by: phi at October 15, 2006 03:17 AM
Memri web site has interesting video of nasrallah going over how they were able to manipulate the western media during the Lebanese conflict with lies and props. Apparently, by some of the comments I've read on this thread I'd say Hezbollah,s PR dept. did their job well.
Posted by: rick at October 15, 2006 11:41 AM
Interesting scenario: I wonder how the Liberals will carry Montreal without the zionist vote...Harper's majority comming from a Quebec Liberal defeat ...now that's irony!
Posted by: wlyonmackenzie at October 15, 2006 11:47 AM
wlyonmackenzie wonders "I wonder how the Liberals will carry Montreal without the zionist vote..."
They're going to lose more than just the zionist vote! A lot of Christians (remember: Christianity was invented by Jews) have a sentimental soft spot for Israel. Israel is where man first started sorting out right from wrong, and it was the birthplace of scientific agriculture. The Liberals will lose bags of support by slagging Israel in such a thoughtless way.
Posted by: José Joseph at October 15, 2006 02:47 PM
From the hotbed of Librano$vill, the GTA, comes the New Muslim Liberal organ. . .
The new [Toronto based - where else? ], Aver Magazine.
On sale at Muslim retailers.
*I love my religion. I love the flexibility that it offers. But a lot of people don't see, or don't seem to get, that flexibility,* says Tahmina Reza, one of the founders of the new, Toronto-based magazine.
Its first official issue was released in September and will be sold at Muslim retailers in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal and Edmonton.
*Aver* is an English verb meaning to declare forcefully.
She says its founders created what they intend to be a quarterly magazine because they want to reach out to like-minded Muslims. [Forcefully? Jihadist protest like?]TG
*We wanted a place to discuss the issues,* she says.
*We wanted to deal with issues that would make people uncomfortable, like relationships with Jewish people and homosexuality.*
Reza stopped short of calling the magazine liberal, but it accepts content from whoever is willing to submit.
Its website, ..w.Aver.com, has poems, short stories about being harassed by the RCMP, and essays about religion and politics.
It also has an article that speculates on an alternate reality. *What if a Muslim did the Montreal shootings?*
================= Aver.ca
When I clicked on the E-Toronto Star link to *Aver Magazine*, it first linked instead to the Video debunking the father and son behind the concrete trash container ducking from staged Iraeli gunfire. Amazing! That is the first propaganda intercept I have ever seen in Canada.
Aver magazine is not the *moderate Muslims speaking out* as we had hoped for, seems to me anyway. Too bad. = TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at October 15, 2006 04:45 PM
I believe the Jews have struggled in this century, and my sympathies are with them, as they have the right to live in piece, and for God's sake lets give it to them. I am glad they have a strong army, I reconize the hand of Hezbollah, as a terrorist group, a hand of Iran, and that if not for Iran, the war in Iraq might be over.
Having said that I do not think we should be getting caught up in their wars by making assumptions of war crimes etc. However, personally in the last war I had sympathy for the people of Lebanon, where their was much destruction and life. I had no sympathy for Hezabollah, but I also sympathize with the lost of life in Israel.
I do not believe our government should be take sides, but try to find a balance, after all I believe the people of Lebanon, are not the hardliners that go after Irael. Harper was just as guilty as Inganieff, for political gain.
Posted by: Jacques at October 16, 2006 02:53 PM
Don't you find it very odd that after years of service with the Liberal party one statement from a guy who isn't even the leader yet (if he will be) is a bit silly?
Posted by: Shawn at October 17, 2006 01:16 PM
 
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